Can we talk about the mental impact of being told the definition of woman is changing?

[UglyCathKidstonBag]

I’d like to hear specifically from women who feel their mental health has been in any way impacted by being told the definition of “woman” has or will change so that it either excludes them or includes men. Has anyone felt their mental health has been impacted by the “erasure” of woman.

I have long term therapy as part of treatment for PTSD and GAD both of which are centred around abuse from various men in my life. I had been able to control both to a manageable state thanks to this treatment until the past 3-6 months.
I am now unable to use places such as gyms, swimming pools, changing rooms and similar settings because of my fear of being in intimate spaces with unknown male bodied people. This is now starting to have a knock on impact for my work.

It feels like we're caught up in a very large scale social conformity experiment - one in which we're expected to forget that the pre-conditions for successful propaganda are reasonably well understood.

Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism argued that a: “mixture of gullibility and cynicism... is prevalent in all ranks of totalitarian movements":

In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and nothing was true... The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness."*

Aside from the obvious, horrible parallels with EA and DV, compelling others to repeat your lies is a well established interrogation technique that is known to break the spirit of those being interrogated. It's also a means to assert your dominance over subordinates.

I think Cialdini and various social psychologists argue that when individuals can be coerced into abandoning their integrity by being compelled to repeat untruths they can then be bound to the coercive force by a need for consistency, mixed with shame and complicity.

Jacob T. Levy's piece about Authoritarianism and Post-Truth Politics highlighted this: “[The] great analysts of truth and speech under totalitarianism—George Orwell, Hannah Arendt, Vaclav Havel—can help us recognize this kind of lie for what it is. Sometimes—often—a leader with authoritarian tendencies will lie in order to make others repeat his lie both as a way to demonstrate and strengthen his power over them.

Saying something obviously untrue, and making your subordinates repeat it with a straight face in their own voice, is a particularly startling display of power over them. It’s something that was endemic to totalitarianism.”

I am having a really hard time with it. In the US we are dealing with lesbians getting attacked at Dyke March, boys setting records in girls’ sports, and men in all women’s spaces. I had a prominent pro trans gay man tell me to my face that neither I nor any girl child had a right not to see the penises of strangers in any public space in which we might be naked. Two years later, I still feel like this comment, made in a one on one conversation separated from others, from a man much larger than me, was a threat.

My childhood abuse PTSD and attachment issues are back far more intensely than they’ve been in years. I’m despairing a lot of the time and feel gaslit and abused. It’s awful.

Yesitsadebate you are inspiring to me and many others

I had my first ever deletion for calling a male person out on their sex and their inherent entitlement to do as they wish.

I am increasingly anxious about the future of females (by which I mean humans of the female sex) and the power that is being levied against us. Males have found a PC way to infiltrate us and show how they are better women than we will ever be. Makes me sick to my bones

Well yes. I'd like to (maybe even need to) say more, as in how and why it's particularly affecting me right now but I find that kind of openness a bit difficult at best of times, more so when feeling stressed and a tad vulnerable.

And now I also have to take into account the new language restrictions, (which, as I said in the GC austistic thread, are an utter headfuck), and the antagonistic male presence that's conducting itself here like some.kind of hostile occupying force (much as males do in the rest of the world , I suppose) so....yeah, I guess its just "not the place for me " to do so.

I've already gone to reply to a couple of threads today, then just deleted instead because of all the above. That's happened far too much in the past month or two. So that's some indication I guess. I'll leave it at that.

I am furious and scared and I feel like I am inhabiting a parallel universe where some kind of mass delusion has taken hold.

To hear intelligent people parroting uncritically that some men are women and that said men are more oppressed than women just feels like we are living in some kind of Orwellian nightmare. People including friends, relatives, colleagues, academics, politicians, writers, ‘feminists’.... It’s hard to fathom. I thank God for these boards, a small haven of sanity amidst this utter insanity.

To hear a politician, and the Minister for Women at that, say that some men are women, just adds a new dimension to the nightmare.

It's fucking me off no end. I'm a DV survivor and am constantly reminded of my gaslighlighting Ex. I ran away from him in bare feet and it's taken years to actually escape. The rage is real.

This is an important and valuable thread. It's really therapeutic to read all these comments because it's so exhausting to be someone who believes the truth about XX/XY today.

Someone asked for a li k to the video that talks about trans issues possibly being indicative of cultural collapse, as seen historically.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3291763-Lessons-from-history-Transgender-Mania

Thanks pftt - I needed your words and agree with what you said. I stumbled across all this only a month ago. My MH has definitely been affected. I can't even talk to my DD about it because I know I'd just cry. I've tried to explain to 2 very close women friends and they can't believe it...I've also told DH who was also incredulous and there's been loads of 'surely no, this really can't happen?'
I'm scared and angry and frustrated and I can't stop thinking about it.
There is a part of me that thinks 'will it be that bad?..it's only a small %age of people..' but the exponential tidal wave of support from national organisations and the media has totally floored me.
We won't be silenced. The rest of the country, who are currently in ignorant bliss will eventually know and it will hit the fan.... I hope...

Was me joy, thank you

this is another thread that may be of interest called Taking it out on your body - possible roots

Yes, I'm afraid and angry and frustrated that it has come to this, and that there is so little willingness to find a solution which protects everyone.

It is so upsetting to me that so many women are being impacted in this way.

Hey @MNHQ, have you got anything to say on this matter?

I am a survivor of child hood sexual abuse, domestic violence and have PTSD as well as bipolar.

I feel a serious and deep despondency about this entire erosion of female rights. I am typically manic at this time of year, what with the extra sunlight and long days but this year I have found myself stuck in a serious depressive slump for the first summer ever.

If rape is to be forcefully penetrated by a penis, against your will.....then what if the man that rapes somebody says he is a woman with a giant lady clitoris. Does that mean they were not raped?

A great deal of biological women have experienced male aggression/violence/intimidation etc. The youth hostels used to be a safe place to stay but now anybody can stay in any room at all and me, a person that is the same sex as 50% of the population am expected to pay a premium for a single room as it is now ME that is the freak that expects my private spaces to remain private. Done beliveve me? this a quote from an email when I enquired-

"We separate our shared dormitory accommodation by gender.

It sounds like on this occasion a private room would be most suitable for your stay."

So despite gender being a social construct that resides on the head, I am supposed to put my need for safe space to one side and allow anybody with a penis to share my room. Because of what is in their head.

What about what is in MY head?

What about my horrific memories of him climbing into bed behind me, forcing me flat against the wall and pushing my my little pony nighty up and hurting me? The smell of his semen on me and the sickly BO aroma that I was covered in afterwards from him sweating on me. Why the hell should I have to encounter that in a fucking changing room meant for WOMEN.

I do not want communal toilets either. When my fanny is dripping lumps of chopped up liver and i'm sat vulnerable with my pants round my ankles and I'm fighting with my moon cup, I do not want a 10 inch gap under a flimsy cubicle door with Bob the builder having a shit next to me and Mike from accounts trying to have a conversation about if I will go out for drinks with him. When my hands are covered in blood as its my heaviest day, I do not want the side eye from men at the sink as they judge me for having the fucking cheek to menstruate.

I was not able to join in with the manfriday stuff on twitter as my profession is linked to my account, how bad is that? I was scared to raise my voice despite it being a law abiding campaign!?

I have also postponed my PhD. I was due to start this year. Without sounding dramatic, this hangs like a black cloud over my head and I worry sick for my children. the rights of 50% of the population are being decimated for the few snowflakes that want to mansplain what it is to chest feed and campaign for two fathers on a birth certificate.

I'm a woman and proud. Men have not broken me yet but at times it does feel overwhelming and I am actually crying my eyes out writing this.

I am a woman.

NOT a ciswoman.

This , Brexit , and the slow theft of the NHS .
A dystopian nightmare at the hands of patriarchy , all of it .

@AuntLydiasSteelyArmPitHair You deserved so much better.

@Snappity, @bespin et all, read that post and tell me, with a straight face and looking into my eyes that a woman who has been subjected to that should have to sleep or change in the same room as someone with a penis.
What about my horrific memories of him climbing into bed behind me, forcing me flat against the wall and pushing my my little pony nighty up and hurting me? The smell of his semen on me and the sickly BO aroma that I was covered in afterwards from him sweating on me.

Aunt Lydia thankyou for your very powerful post

One must take great care that in dismantling historical safeguarding measures, that women and children are not put in harms way - they are there for a reason because of male violence and deviancy - the Chesterton Fence principle needs to apply

a person that is the same sex as 50% of the population am expected to pay a premium for a single room as it is now ME that is the freak that expects my private spaces to remain private.

I propose we call this the "rape victim tax". It's not enough that we are sexually victimised because of our sex not gender, we then pay extra throughout life in private rooms, private counselling, missed work, anything I've missed?

@AuntLydiasSteelyArmPitHair have you thought about adding your testimony to the Penny Mordaunt thread and asking her whether she thinks it's fair that sexual abuse victims have to pay a premium to stay safe?

I reckon CSA and rape.victims outnumber trans people. Why should we come last?

AuntLydiasSteelyArmPitHair Thank you for sharing your story and so sorry that this is affecting you so badly.

I'd be very interested in reading a psychological explanation of the impact that this denial of reality is having on women. I wonder whether anyone is studying this?

I am extremely new to MN and have hesitated to join since all my friends have filled me in on the censorship here and I am not willing to be part of the few making money off our participation. But after reading Justine's post yesterday, I just can't shut up any longer. The ageism in what she writesa woman who appears to be around 50denigrating her fellow women by essentially instructing us that we are 'just behind' the youth culture which she so clearly wants to "nurture". Indeed, they are future clicks for this site and she knows where her money comes from. Certainly not women my mother's age whose opinions seem to matter little to the very CEOs who will be able to attend a private pool where males and females are clearly separated, where being ageist is more then ok--it's how the rich get richer and where speaking out about a group being a "zillion times" worse than that of women just makes me wonder what this person is doing running a platform where she is taking part in the mass gaslighting of women.

I am just over 30, I have been acutely aware of the brainwashing of trans theory from my days in uni and yeah this sucks for those of us who can see that 2+2 does not equal 5. I have to wonder if women should not just abandon women only media spaces such as this. MN like NM and many others give the verneer of "freedom", but how free are we if we must be told that our suffering is a zillion times worse than a man who likes to wear dresses. Yeah, my heart goes out to all these men, but from where I am sitting I hear oodles more from Paris Lees and Jane Faye than I do from women--not even feminists, just women.

Of course, this hurts our mental health and those of children. How are we supposed to raise them in a world to fight against injustice when naming realitymales, femalesis not only verboten, but the head of forums like this identify with males who suffer but are clearly economically doing far better than most of us here and elsewhere. The real question for me is really not about safety in toilets and hospital wards, although this is a massive issue, my query is why are we being told what to say and how we should respectfully speak with others when our speech is respectful.

This is all very much a postmodern Catherine wheel.

I am sorry to hear about the mental health problems people are reporting.

There seems to be massive scare mongering regarding the effects of the proposed legal changes - and it seems that this transphobia is hurting not just trans women but non-trans women as well.

I am now unable to use places such as gyms, swimming pools, changing rooms and similar settings because of my fear of being in intimate spaces with unknown male bodied people

The law that controls access to these places the Equality Act has not changed in the last 8 years and the government has reaffirmed that it won't change.

For anyone for whom this is impacting their mental health, I would suggest they leave MN and other social media and just carry on as normal.

For anyone for whom this is impacting their mental health, I would suggest they leave MN and other social media and just carry on as normal

For anyone for whom this is impacting their mental health, I would suggest they dont pay any attention to randoms telling them what they should and shouldn't do

How reassuring for a TRA to rock up to the thread, pat us all on the head and tell us that we've got nothing to worry about - and that if we're feeling got at by the incessant bullshit, 'non-trans' women should suck it up and leave MN to the TRAs.

That's the mindset here - women talk about their vulnerabilities, TRAs see it as an opportunity to run them off. Much compassion, much empathy.