Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we talk about the mental impact of being told the definition of woman is changing?

255 replies

UglyCathKidstonBag · 04/07/2018 14:32

I’d like to hear specifically from women who feel their mental health has been in any way impacted by being told the definition of “woman” has or will change so that it either excludes them or includes men. Has anyone felt their mental health has been impacted by the “erasure” of woman.

I have long term therapy as part of treatment for PTSD and GAD both of which are centred around abuse from various men in my life. I had been able to control both to a manageable state thanks to this treatment until the past 3-6 months.
I am now unable to use places such as gyms, swimming pools, changing rooms and similar settings because of my fear of being in intimate spaces with unknown male bodied people. This is now starting to have a knock on impact for my work.

OP posts:
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 06/07/2018 12:58

I agree floral

Fucking tone deaf

BeyondRaggydoll · 06/07/2018 13:00

May I take the opportunity to share Sarah's sage advice - which h'obviously applies in both directions, or Sarah would be a hypocrite - to the TRAs here on mn...

"For anyone for whom this is impacting their mental health, I would suggest they leave MN and other social media and just carry on as normal."

There we go.

Ereshkigal · 06/07/2018 13:04

May I take the opportunity to share Sarah's sage advice - which h'obviously applies in both directions, or Sarah would be a hypocrite - to the TRAs here on mn...

Well said.

AuntLydiasSteelyArmPitHair · 06/07/2018 13:13

@bd67th I don't know what thread that is. Do you have a link?

arranfan · 06/07/2018 13:47

enoughisenough12 wrote: I'd be very interested in reading a psychological explanation of the impact that this denial of reality is having on women. I wonder whether anyone is studying this?

I don't know about the specific issue you raise but you'll be aware that Stock's recent piece has seen people calling for her dismissal.

The social conformity aspects and stepping-stones to how to implement totalitarianism are alarming yet I don't have a sense that researchers or professionals feel free to explore them.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 14:24

What happens on MN affects my health LESS than the real life impact of it all.

I find solace in knowing the penny has dropped with so many. It took a long time for me to article my gut feeling that something was off kilter and did not sit well with me, despite my belief in liberal values and tolerance.

I've spent a number of years battling anxiety and the conflict between your rational brain and your emotional brain. And how this effects how you see studies and ideas. Learning to step back and learning the need to balance the two rather than taking one too far so that you are neither ruled by blind emotion at the expense of sense or ideological purity and a sense of morality at the expense of humanity - which extends to all and not just your own situation. Its a very useless and practical process to go through for anyone and everyone as it highlights your subconscious bias and helps you to question and think critically.

I've never came at this from a strictly feminist POV.

From my own personal experience, I feel like it is like looking in a cracked mirror. The reflection you see if not quite right. You know its not quite right but you can't put you finger on why. And that makes you feel uncomfortable.

Part of it, is in physical presentation. Part of it, is from an ideological point of view separated from people.

In terms of the physical side of it, it reminds me of the uncanny valley phenomenon

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Indeed I would not be at all surprised if psychologically, many of us are being affected by something of a similar effect. I note that the Uncanny Valley feeling is driven through a need to identify and assess risk which is deep seated within us at an instinctive level and beyond what we can actively control. It is emotionally thus more powerful that logical.

By the same token, if you have had experience of a situation which has been traumatic your sense to protect yourself would be heightened. And you would have a inability to over come that, even if you wished. You simply view the world in a very different way to others who have lived a closet life and have merely been fed on a diet of high minded priniciples. Your sense of instinct and what you view as needing to do to survive are a part of anxiety.

And this very much plays into the ideological side of things, combined with the current political narratives and wider changes in our society which many of us, see as a threat or harmful to the interests of women. Which feels equally off kilter and distopian in nature.

Neither being driven by emotion or logic is intristinctly right or wrong. Just neutral. Both have their flaws as a way of thinking. But if the evidence starts to back up with the instinct, and is ignored by those who put their principles and ideology first, then yes there would really be an issue. Equally if we let our brains be dominated by fear without due cause and there not being a root cause to it, that can become simple prejudice.

The dynamic we see, is one where there is what some people see as a suppression of evidence through language, which will add to anxieties and the instinct of personal experience. We see evidence that is being deliberately twisted and used against people to smear them as being 'hysterical' and letting the fear take over to become prejudice.

If you suffer from anxiety independentally of it all, already, of course this will all be overwhelming and difficult to deal with. (Notably women are much more likely to have anxiety disorders anyway - is that social or chromosonal?)

The reality is you need to understand this dynamic and work through it. You need to offer the correct reassurance, because if you don't you just set off more alarm bells and produce more anxiety.

And yes there is possibly a deliberate strategy to do that, if there is something amiss or some people have nefarious ambitions. By provoking the anxiety, they can use the anxiety against individuals by making them incapable to act in a rational, intellegent and productive way.

I find it helpful to understand the roots of anxiety and why you feel a certain way - outside your actual experience - and at the core forces that drive you psychologically. It also helps to understand the dynamics of how there is such conflict between gender critical feminists and extreme trans ideology.

Its very much not pink brain/blue brain but how your brain has been shaped psychologically by your need to survive driven by negative experiences. Socialisation thus will lead us to very different points, simply on sex grounds. And replacing sex with gender will not work on a psychological level, even if the actual risk associated with it, is overstated. (And stepping back and looking at the data alone, I'm not sure that is the case either).

The idea that you can be converted by the law or censorship is therefore bollocks. All it does is work at odds with the experience and psychology of women who have had bad experience at the hands of male psychicality. That can not be placed into law. All it will do is, literally harm women mentally and cause greater resentment suspicion and hostility. Not achieve the ambition and ideals that good hearted idealists want. It will only serve those who really do have an agenda which does not have the interests of women at heart (and that isn't just TRAs. Its also far right anti-women types who can exploit these anxieties to their political advantage at the expense of both women and trans people).

The very concept of Self ID, is very much at odds with an understanding of the mental health needs of women. Again, noting that anxiety is predominately a women's health issue in the first place. And arguably as a result technically disablist and sexist, merely by its failure to acknowledge the need to understand how it will have a particular affect on women with anxiety health conditions.

My concern, is that those with money are well aware of the whole dynamic - afterall its been utilised to influence how some of us might vote through Facebook. What we do or don't do, is well known. Thus the need to resist our subconscious emotional reactions which can be predicted, is even more pressing. We have a need to fight instincts, precisely in order to protect ourselves.

I dunno. I'm kinda rambling here and perhaps not making as much sense as I should. This is one of those streams of consciousness that I just need to splurge and refine in my own head later!

Its very much a battle of hearts and minds, but we have to understand how our hearts and minds work because this is a propaganda war being waged in our homes and through our phones and most of us are completely unaware of it. Indeed particularly those who should be most aware of it: politicians and key decision makers in state institutions.

What amazes me most, is the political blindness to this. It demonstrates very very clearly the dangers in people in power only being privileged. You need to understand the psychology of it as well as any issues over how evidence is presented or indeed misrepresented or indeed completely withheld or simply completely factually untrue.

/ends Brain Fart.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 14:45

When is anxiety, simply anxiety and when does it cross the line into being aggressive? Or read as aggressive? When is that defensive, and when is it a preemptive strike? What's justifiable and what is socially totally unacceptable?

And yes this matters when talking about trans issues.

A LOT.

rhebarb · 06/07/2018 15:32

I definitely have times of feeling despondent over the TRA issue. Then I try to remember that most people "in real life" would think it's bullshit, even if they can't say it out loud; and that the big social contagion phase will be over in a year or two, with something else attention-seeking replacing it.

So yes you can leave MN and social media for a while, because most humans know it's absurd nonsense and think it's a Politically Correct phase. Deep down in real life we're never going to lose the idea of what women and men really are, no matter how many demanding little boys command us to.

It's sad though that we're taking such a huge fucking step backwards when we seemed to be progressing somewhere else - and lots of people will be affected badly in the meantime. But we're humans after all. It's not like we're heading for a happy ending as a species.

LangCleg · 06/07/2018 15:50

One must take great care that in dismantling historical safeguarding measures, that women and children are not put in harms way - they are there for a reason because of male violence and deviancy - the Chesterton Fence principle needs to apply.

This.

Stopthisnow · 06/07/2018 17:55

I think it is healthy to take breaks from this form time to time, I have done so at times, it would also be good if there was a place where we could talk about what is happening and support each other without these men present. I think those who push gender ideology are highly manipulative, and use a lot of gaslighting, and this is why they have such an negative impact on mental health. This is my take on the situation. The men who promote gender ideology have no idea what sex discrimination actually is as they are male. Females experience abuse and discrimination due to being born female, no male has experienced that, as they are not born female. Loosing a bit of respect in other men’s eyes, because they perform feminine stereotypes, is not the same as the oppression females face. The fact many men seem to think is the same just shows how privileged these men actually are. After all they have chosen to adopt a sexist feminine role (whether it be due to dysphoria, sexual motives or a mixture), females do not have that same choice, it is forced on us. Even if we reject it, it doesn’t prevent us from suffering the same abuse and/or discrimination other females face. A male does not experience oppression due to being male, whether he adopts a feminine role or not he is still treated as the male he is. I think most males know this really, but they want certain things from us, such as access to our spaces etc. Men that follow gender ideology consider themselves entitled to these things if they adopt a feminine role. In order to get us to submit to their demands they use the following gaslighting and manipulative techniques:

  1. They play on our socialisation to be nice and empathetic to men and to always put them first.
  1. They play on the fact that we have all been taught that men who are assumed to be a lower status man by other men, should be given special treatment, and prioritised over women.
  1. They position themselves as victims that should be prioritised and entitled to be given all they demand, and claim that it is hateful of us not to give it to them.
  1. When women conform to their socialisation and try to placate these men, they see this as a weakness and push harder to get us to give them more and more.
  1. When women tell these men no, and assert firm boundaries, they just keep trying to persuade by whatever means they can, such as by and likening themselves to legitimate civil rights movements in order to make themselves look respectable etc.
  1. If all persuasion fails they resort to intimidation and threats of violence.
  1. They do not have any legitimate or reasonable arguments that do not reveal the nature of the ideology, so they try to silence women speaking about it, so the true nature of it is not publicly revealed.
  1. In order to still appear as ‘good guys’ they reverse everything they have done and project their own aggressive, manipulative and abusive behaviours onto us, so that they can still appear as the victim and portray the actual victim as the abuser.

It makes me angry these men are so obvious and yet there is hardly anywhere this can be called out for what it is: male dominance and manipulation in action. I posit that these men act this way precisely because they are men. It does get me down witnessing what these men are getting away with, but my anger spurs me on to fight this ideology.

AnchorMum · 06/07/2018 22:25

Firstly, thank you to all the wonderful women on here who tell the truth, share their experiences, offer their wisdom and time and support.

Seriously, just reading your words and feeling connected to the amazing collective body of women like you is life affirming.

Life affirming at a time when I have never felt so low and powerless and grief stricken.

My beloved daughter is gone - sucked into the rabbit hole. Soon to be sterile and balding and bearded. ROGD.

As my son says, it's tearing our family apart.

Funny how trans people don't acknowledge the mental health repercussions felt by the families. We are torn: we love our children, desperately want to support them, but have to watch while their beautiful personalities become subsumed by the mantra. They rewrite the past and their personal history, spout the words, statistics and narrative we are all familiar with, dictate the terms of engagement, limit or cut off communication as a means of control.

What's happened to my child has made me angry, shocked, grief stricken. I feel bereaved and at a total loss. Is it somehow my fault?

I feel utterly powerless.

I became quite ill last autumn and was hospitalised a couple of times due to the stress of it all.

What made me start to recover was the realisation that I couldn't continue to swallow the lies in order to appease my child for fear of losing her. She was already lost.

I couldn't continue to deny the truth.

Denying the truth means denying myself, my history and legacy as a mother and a woman. And I simply cannot do that.

I now tell the truth, with as
much love and compassion as I can manage, and I refuse to let the non-sense in. It takes all my strength to do this. Of course some days I don't have that strength and the tears take over.

My personal experience is just one tiny thread within this much bigger picture.

And that's made me realise the extent to which I'm joined to all women - not just by our shared biology but by our collective, innate sense of who we are -and how very very precious that is.

FloralBunting · 06/07/2018 22:32

AnchorMum, you've reduced me to tears. I'm so sorry for what your family are going through. Flowers

LangCleg · 06/07/2018 22:33

Flowers AnchorMum

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 06/07/2018 22:37

anchormum Thanks

Stopthisnow · 06/07/2018 22:58

AnchorMum I am so sorry you are going through what you are. It is not your fault.Flowers

Waddlelikeapenguin · 06/07/2018 23:24

AuntLydiasSteelyArmPitHair Flowers
anchormum Flowers

To everyone else FlowersFlowersFlowers protect yourself so you can keep fighting Star

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 23:43

Anchor Flowers

I get you. All too well.

Ereshkigal · 06/07/2018 23:45

Anchor Thanks

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 07/07/2018 02:26

Flowers so sad your daughter has been taken in by this cult.

MsBeee · 07/07/2018 02:31

Oh God, Im so sorry. (flowers)

MsBeee · 07/07/2018 02:33

Oh I can't seem to do the flower thing.
My heart goes out to you

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 07/07/2018 09:23

mrsbee

Its the square brackets [ ]

Smile
Zruda · 07/07/2018 15:38

I’d like to add my thanks to the posters who have shared their experiences. Anchor Mum, I am so sorry for what you have been through and are going through. Please look after yourself now.

To rhebarb: I get very despondent too and believe that most people would think this is all bullshit. But so much has already happened and I am very afraid for girls and women now.

PissedOffWoman · 28/07/2018 10:06

AuntLydiasSteelyArmPitHair Flowers

AnchorMum Flowers

VickyEadie · 28/07/2018 11:27

I enjoyed connecting with others on Twitter. I am sad that I had to close my account. I can limit myself to viewing the odd tweet. The algorithms and gaslighting on Twitter are the problem.

I used to enjoy many of the people I followed on Twitter and then the TRAs effectively chased me off and I never go there any more.

Ever since I discovered - to my extreme horror - what's going on with all this, I find myself experiencing episodes of real fear, almost terror (i've suffered from periods of extreme anxiety for some years), of where it will end.

Swipe left for the next trending thread