A woman is an adult female human

[Pratchet]

Of the sex whose reproductive role is to gestate and bear young.

Let's just say this while we still can. Because it's true, and however many people try to make us lie about it, or remain silent, it will always be true.

In times of universal deceit, speaking the truth is a revolutionary act.

It hurts MY feelings to see 'transwomen are women'. It damages MY mental health to see that, it makes ME feel erased and MY identity feel destroyed. I have a voice and I deserve that voice. WE deserve it.

I am Spartacus. A woman is an adult female human. Sex is binary, immutable and defined by reproductive role.

If you report me, or get me banned you shoot the messenger. Because this is true and will always be true. And this day, this day of a lie, I WILL say it.

#Spartacus

Snappity, biology is clearly not your strong point.

A vagina is part of the birth canal.

Definition of birth canal
: the channel formed by the cervix, vagina, and vulva through which the fetus passes during birth

Women have birth canals. Their vaginas are part of their reproductive system.

Babies come out of women's bodies via their birth canals.

"Neovagina"

Um.

No.

It's not a vagina. It's a surgically created orrifice.

So glad I'm Muslim and segregation by sex in many facilities is mandatory and female (adult human women ) only spaces are , quite literally , a - god given right Next time you are there, close your eyes, take it in, and enjoy every second

So glad I'm Muslim and segregation by sex in many facilities is mandatory and female (adult human women) only spaces are , quite literally , a - god given right

Yeah, good luck with hanging on to that:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2411152/Lucy-Vallender-Former-male-TA-soldier-UKs-transgender-Muslim-woman-MARRIED.html

The lie is that the word woman does not mean adult human female.

That's not the bloody lie though is it. That's just plain old real-world thinking that tells us the world is a messy place where things don't always fit tidily into neat little boxes, no matter how much things would be easier if only they would.

Woman has a definition in the dictionary; big whoop. It's a box we built to categorise the world around us, to make sense of things. But life is more complicated than that. People are more complicated.

It doesn't take a lot of soul-searching to see that sometimes the word seems to be the right one - we only have so many to choose from, after all - even if you have to stretch that box a little.

I'm not talking crazy here, it's common sense. This is how things work; laws still govern, society still functions; trans women are women to a good many people. But not everyone, and not all of the time. It's messy, it's not clear cut, but that's life.

Trans women are not women.

Fact.

Open a bloody biology book would you?

I think your conflating gender with sex, roly.
There really are only two sexes . It's a scientific , cold, hard fact .
Dogs and young babies can tell the difference .

initially the new vagina has the wrong micro-flora and trans women aren't trained how to establish a proper balance

Really snappity? Women and young girls don't generally undergo any kind of 'training'.

What does it encompass?

Was my vagina supposed to come with a manual??

Apparently

I think snappity may have a copy

I'm not talking crazy here, it's common sense.

How can it be common sense, when there is literally NO definition that includes natal woman, and trans women; and doesn't include natal men or trans men?

If it cannot be defined, there is no sense - common or otherwise - anywhere near it.

It ain't a wafty constellation of floatylight ness; it is the literal definition of the 'adult, human, female'. That is it. And everyone bloody knows it.

Rat, you are getting sex mixed up with gender. That doesn't fit into boxes, nor of course do personalities. But sex is defined by reproductive role. It's not woolly in any way. If it's not defined by reproductive role then there's no 'male' or 'female' at all.

Governments have codified beliefs into law before.
It is one of the most self destructive things a government can do because they then have to enforce demonstrations of submission to belief and punish the non believers.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Womanhood is not something that can be earned, or awarded, or gatekept. It's not a club, an achievement or a badge of honour. It just is.*

🙏.

Profound. ❤️

The link does not work, no, but if you search neovagina on the website prawn linked to, it is actually fascinating. I did not know that sex reassignment surgery developed from inter sex surgery, nor that it has been being developed at least since the 1930s.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4058296/#!po=43.9655

I am really curious now what the early pioneers of surgery thought would happen. It is clear from the article I link to here that they are talking about sex change reassignment surgery, whereas the issue with self-ID is about the idea of gender being in your head.

Nonetheless, the language in the paper I link to is interesting - they talk of vaginal reconstruction which sits in contradiction with calling what they are making a ‘neovagina’. It is vaginal construction, really. It talks about making the appearance and function as close as possible to a biological woman - but by function, they mean sexual function, whereas women menstruate, miscarry, and/or give birth with these organs, it is not just aesthetics and sexual function for women.

There is nothing about smell, just to be clear - although the list of risks and side-effects is somewhat scary. I have not yet searched neo penis, but I am guessing the surgery to create this does not go back nearly one hundred years, suggesting the idea that men could become women was the one which took hold first.

🤔

Given how invasive the surgery is and the risks attached, I can see why people uncomfortable with their natal sex would not seek to change it, but rather to present as the opposite sex. And I don’t see any issue with anyone calling themselves a conventionally opposite sex name, or wearing conventionally opposite sex clothes, but the debate is not around this. It is the insistence that, with no SRS, a natal male can enter female spaces because they at that is how they identify. This ignores the long history of women fighting for those spaces to fully engage in public life.

So, it is not about SRS and how it works or doesn’t work, what kind of person it makes or doesn’t make, is it? It’s about the right of natal males to assert they are actually women, and be treated as such. That is the crux of the matter.

Do I think a natal male who has had SRS is a woman? I am not sure that is relevant to whether they should be in same-sex spaces. They have constructed female genitals, not what they were born with. I cannot see that is an easy journey. Do I think a natal male without SRS is a woman? To do this, I have to believe in something innate, a sense they claim to have, which offers no tangible proof, other than what they say.

I'm not going to react to your post Snappity, it should just remain there for others to read. Trust me though, they will draw conclusions.

Update, I didn't go to bed.

Why the fuck has the word and definition of 'woman' become " messy, not clear cut".

I don't see us stressing on what the definition of 'cat' means, cos it's become messy, not clear cut.

I don't see us stressing on what the definition of a 'gay man' means, cos it's become messy, not clear cut.

I don't see us stressing on what the definition of 'child' means, cos it's become messy, not clear cut.

Why the fuck is the definition of 'woman' the only one that's become 'messy' and 'not clear cut'?

(Answer: lots of us can see, males want 'in'. Won't take 'no' for an answer')

Since the thread is about biology, it is apt to compare a trans woman vagina with that of a woman who has had an hysterectomy. Biologically both are blind canals.

Fuuuuuuuck! And I’m not easily shocked but, fuuuuuuuuuuuuck!

Long time mner. Joined when I found myself unexpectedly pregnant 12 years ago. Name change now to keep previous posting to myself (not least because of the screenscraping of this site and its posts by the Mail / Sun).

I have given and received support on this board, some of which kept me sane and feeling much less lonely through a long spell as a single parent.

I've read the whole thread, it took me over 2 hours but I felt it was important to read.

I am indebted to the OP and to all those posters who have succinctly and calmly put their thoughts and feelings across. I was staggered to read the Mumsnet mod post and equally shored up by the logical dissection of it by subsequent posters.

This thread has made me angry and hopeful in equal measures. As a mother to 3 daughters I am genuinely worried for their future in a world where scientific fact is set aside in favour of political posturing, agitprop and silencing of women's voices.

But...this thread gives me hope that we will rage against the dying of the light.

In 12 years I don't think I've ever given  but @Pratchet you deserve them and an ovation to accompany them. Thank you and to all the other posters calmly co

Style over content, the bane of my life.

Balls...pressed post too soon...should have ended with...

Calmly continuing to work with the facts in hand.

Since the thread is about biology, it is apt to compare a trans woman vagina with that of a woman who has had an hysterectomy. Biologically both are blind canals

Errrmmmmm nope, thats not how it works

Does anyone remember dwight from the American office tv show? Cos thats who snappity is channeling

Since a good deal of this thread is about what might be considered 'inflammatory' then agree, let snappitys post stand.

My post took me ages to write so the thread moved on. I will read the working link.

Just to say, you cannot say that a woman who has had a hysterectomy is comparable with one who has had SRS. They are not both blind canals. The woman with the hysterectomy will have usually been born and grown up with a female reproductive system, and the hormonal cycle to match. I am not an expert, but removing her womb does not change that past, nor change her chromosomal make-up, or that society has seen her as female and this will have shaped her experiences. Being a woman is about more than the ‘blind canal’, aside from the authenticity and aesthetics of its covering.