A woman is an adult female human

[Pratchet]

Of the sex whose reproductive role is to gestate and bear young.

Let's just say this while we still can. Because it's true, and however many people try to make us lie about it, or remain silent, it will always be true.

In times of universal deceit, speaking the truth is a revolutionary act.

It hurts MY feelings to see 'transwomen are women'. It damages MY mental health to see that, it makes ME feel erased and MY identity feel destroyed. I have a voice and I deserve that voice. WE deserve it.

I am Spartacus. A woman is an adult female human. Sex is binary, immutable and defined by reproductive role.

If you report me, or get me banned you shoot the messenger. Because this is true and will always be true. And this day, this day of a lie, I WILL say it.

#Spartacus

(also, if for one moment you genuinely believe that a man would go through the whole process of transition to go into a women's bathroom to be inappropriate you are off your head)

They won’t need to undergo transition - thats the point

Self ID means you just waltz in - no treatment, transition, hormones, surgery, anything. Any man can walk in unchallenged.

Men can and will use any loophole they can to access women and children to abuse.

But in case you’d like some concrete numbers, the large US chain store that made its changing rooms unisex saw a trebling of voyeuristic/sexually motivated crime after it did so.

Note: this is just men I’m talking about, this is no slur on transwomen - I’m talking about men exploiting loopholes.

A trebling.

I will also remind you that every single bit of the UK safeguarding legislation was brought in after violent people (the majority of which are men) exploited loopholes to abuse and harm children. We have joined up national DBS checks now, for example, in the wake of the Soham murders. The perpetrator there was able to get a job in a school despite having previous by exploiting a loophole that meant data wasn’t shared between authorities.

So yes, they will, they already are.

words are being weaponised on this thread
OH dear. MNHQ jumps the shark.

Why are so many people on this site so obsessed with trans people?

We're not. We're 'obsessed' with women's rights. The redefinition (or rather, undefinition as no-one seems capable of a sensible redefinition anyway) of the word 'woman' has serious implications for the erosion of women's rights.

That is what this is about. Women.

The problem is that those words are being weaponised on this thread, which implicitly calls on posters to repeat them to the point where the volume cannot but feel hostile to a trans person who came across it in Active. Not a TRA, just any individual trans person trying to live their life.

The word woman is being weaponised? This website is about breastfeeding (loaded, much?), ectopic pregnancy, post natal care, pre natal care, so many threads on expectancy dates! The relationship board is full of women desperately trying to get away from abusive men and the advice is to go to a woman's refuge. Woman's Aid is now a loaded term?

Why aren't transwomen obsessed with women's rights? And upholding them?

How far should MN go to avoid offence to people with a particular view or problem who happen across a thread full of people with a contrary view or who don't have that problem?

• No discussion about eating disorders because someone with an ED might be upset by it

• No discussion about our children because someone who has fertility problems might be upset by it

• No discussion about eating meat because a vegan might be upset by it

None of these things are banned. We recognise that some people have a difficult path in life and if we are decent people we try to help and support them. But we don't do that by pretending that the difficulties they face don't exist, didn't happen etc etc or that the illogical views they hold aren't flawed. Everybody has to learn to accept the material reality of the world they live in and adapt to it. Nobody has a right not to be offended.

Worth saying this is quite different from people having every right not to be gratuitously insulted and threatened. But restating an uncomfortable truth is not an insult.

@Camsie - I am kind, I am happy but we are talking about protecting women and children. Reports on why we're so determined to protect the word WOMAN

My argument isn't trying to remove any definitions of women. Women are adult human females. But to expand the definition to include people in male bodies that claim to be women.

I believe them when they say they are trans.

A woman is an adult female human. Sex is binary, immutable and defined by reproductive role

This a million times.

I do not have a 'gender' and I reject sex based roles enforced on me by society.

I am not 'cis' or 'trans', I am just 'me'. I happen to be a woman but that alone does not define me.

A man cannot 'act' or dress their way into womanhood. I can't see how anyone can say you can without falling back on sexist stereotypes.

We do have a word for women that aren't trans. Cis.

I thought we weren't allowed to use this word anymore? Nevertheless, I am an adult human woman. I am not a cis anything.

@KateMumsnet(MNHQ) I really don't think that banning people from defining what an adult human female is in case in upsets a random transperson who might stumble across the thread is reasonable or proportionate.

If I go on transactivisit forum or social media account I know what to expect. If I am upset with lots of people saying transwomen are women then I should go elsewhere. This is not a transactivist board. This is a Feminist and Women's Rights board. People who are going to be upset by the content need to not read it.

Noticeably no one here utters threats of violence against transpeople. Quite the opposite.

Sex is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act 2010. We are entitled to our spaces and MNHQ needs to decide what sort of space this is.

I am a woman. I know that for sure. I gave birth to a woman-child, and in due course, she gave birth to another.

If you are biologically male, you are not a woman. You can certainly dress and act as a woman, I won't call you out on that, go for it. But you can refrain from telling me what a woman is or asking me to redefine myself for your benefit.

Do I get banned now?

I believe them when they say they are trans

Me too

That doesn't mean that it's possible to change sex

A transwoman is a transwoman, and that's fine
A woman is a woman, and that's fine
A transman is a transman, and that's fine
A man is a man, and that's fine

Datun, really truly we are NOT preventing this from being said. If you used any of the words in the OP as part of another discussion, in the course of making your point, they would be allowed to stand because they "discuss biology and scientific evidence".

I really would ask everyone here to take on board the fact that it's really not the words in themselves. The problem is that those words are being weaponised on this thread, which implicitly calls on posters to repeat them to the point where the volume cannot but feel hostile to a trans person who came across it in Active. Not a TRA, just any individual trans person trying to live their life.

@katemumsnet. Thanks for replying. It's incredibly useful for you to come back and engage.

Your problem here is that woman's very biology is offensive to transactivists. I know you are saying it's about regular trans people. But there isn't a woman here who doesn't have empathy for the transwomen who speak on these boards.

We can't caveat every single point we make with an expression of empathy for genuine gender dysphoria sufferers.

You're saying that we weaponising our biology. Do you have any idea how offensive that is?

You cannot separate the content, from the number of times it is said and decide that the content is fine, but the repetition is wrong.

It's either acceptable to say, or it isn't. Particularly as this is the whole point of the issue.

I don't like using analogies and I'm struggling to think of one. But let's take an obvious one of a hypothetical fat person. If a government edict claims that there is no such thing as a fat person, it would be entirely accurate, and acceptable to repeatedly say yes there is, there's one there.

Or, what's your definition of fat?

You're saying that it's wrong to consistently walk up to fat people and say hey you're fat. Which I agree with. Although it's true, and should not be forbidden. It could be frowned upon, but not forbidden.

But that's not what we're doing.

We are being told that women don't exist. The word woman doesn't exist.

In this context, it's entirely normal, rational, and imperative that we can say yes it does.

Just try having a conversation, a normal everyday conversation with women in your office, where every time someone says the word man woman, lesbian, or heterosexual another person says wait, what do you mean by that? Who are you referring to?

You will very quickly realise that there is no way to hold conversation in that way.

You have to hold the conversation in the way we are holding it.

Words have meanings.

Trans women already go into women's toilet's unknown. No one has been challenged. Trans women already go into changing rooms unchallenged. Trans women already go to the swimming pool on women's sessions unchallenged.

It's men pretending to be trans women that this is all about. And trans women should be on our side about this. Though, I suspect, most trans women are.

You said they were women. So do you believe human beings can change sex?

I always ask this, and nobody has ever said yes. No one- can you imagine that!

So now that’s very interesting because the entire consultation for Parliament, to remove all our rights and protections has just been started on that very premise. Which nobody will stand up and say they believe. I find that simply staggering.

So: can humans change sex? Yes or no. Very simple question. If you think TWAW then the answer is yes. But so so many people have told me, very stridently that’s TWAW but nobody will say that they believe humans can change sex.

And where will it end? What if someone turns around and says they want to identify as a cat or a dog. Will we then be expected to refer to them as such??

Its interesting this Spartacus thing.

To some it’s a show of solidarity and to others it is a hostile display.

Democratic dissent changes laws and makes them work better. Those people who would like laws to work to their benefit may find it discomforting to see that others have a different political opinion.

It can be tough to encounter a groundswell of opinion that opposes you. But it’s not discrimination nor is it hate speech.

Labour supporters have to allow Conservatives to speak and vice versa. This is no different

Expanding a definition is changing a definition. Changing a definition is removing the old definition and installing a new definition.

Also the new sympathetic tone is very transparent.

How on earth can the word woman mean anything but the word woman?
Men are men. Women are women. And small furry creatures from Alpha Centuri etc etc (you must get it)
Reality exists, I've said it before and will say it again. Is reality transphobic? Is gravity transphobic? Or is reality too quantum to understand for some people?
To say that the word woman is weaponised by feminists is utterly ridiculous. is pregnancy transphobic? Is breastfeeding? is gynae cancer? Are periods?
Reality people please. And I'm not talking to the feminists

If the term woman is weaponised then the phrase trans women are women is also weaponised.

I'm surprised there has been no evocation of peace and love.

But feel free to take the thread down.

My argument isn't trying to remove any definitions of women. Women are adult human females. But to expand the definition to include people in male bodies that claim to be women.

But why should we have to do that? The words woman and man are necessary because of our biology and the different socialisation we go through based on that biology. Those words lose their meaning if we say anybody can pick which group they belong to.

This video shows how meaningless language becomes when people can identify as anything they want.

My argument isn't trying to remove any definitions of women.
But unfortunately it has that effect. Your redefinition refers the word 'woman' objectively meaningless.

Women are adult human females.
Yes.
*
But to expand the definition to include people in male bodies that claim to be women.*
This would mean that 'women's rights' becomes a meaningless concept, and is incompatible with the inclusion of transmen. Unless you think 'woman' equates to 'non men'.

I believe them when they say they are trans.*

I believe that of people with gender dysphoria. I'm not sure about all 'people in male bodies that claim to be women'. People can claim anything for any reason. I'm sure most trans people are genuine but can you honestly be sure all who say they are trans should be unquestioningly believed with no objective criteria applied?

I believe them when they say they are trans

So do I. I accept that they believe they are trans men or trans women. I am happy to refer to them as trans.

I also acknowledge that many people sincerely believe that there is one God who is Allah and Mohammed is his prophet . They have the right to believe this and I defend their right to do so. Even though I do not share their belief.

But neither group have the right to insist that I believe that same as them. Or that I have to pretend to believe the same as them.

Adult human females are women, of course. Why can't we expand this definition slightly to include women that have been born in the wrong body?

OK we're getting somewhere. Please go ahead and expand the definition slightly.

To do this you will also need to define being born in the wrong body. What makes that person a woman?

Words are not being weaponised Katemumsnet - not by us - we are claiming our own self definition. We define ourselves as women, as adult human females. We claim the right to do that, to draw boundaries around our community, because we share certain characteristics- the characteristic# of our role in sexual reproduction, these are the things that define us as a distinct group.

I am a woman ie an adult human female, a scientist, an academic, a quaker. I will continue to speak the truth as I understand it.