"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread

[Ereshkigal]

I don't want to take this over as a straight feminist woman but am troubled at the blithe denial on other threads. This is a thread to post evidence of lesbophobia from transactivists and trans allies. I will start with the fragrant Morgane Oger:

mobile.twitter.com/fedupfemme/status/1013132702147588097

I know that commenting on people's appearance is rude and often unkind, so I'm making a general point here, not pointing at anyone in particular.

So much of our sexual attraction to other people is based on physicality. Starting with sexual orientation, but beyond that we all have preferences for appearance. It's not the only thing of course, but it tends to be where we start.

We might be more attracted to tall men or blonde women or people with long hair or bohemians or men in suits or whatever. I suppose everyone has been surprised by a sexual spark with someone who isn't their usual type, but physical attraction is an important component of most relationships.

If you are a 50 year old, six foot male who decides to express yourself as a version of womanhood, chances are your physical appearance is not going to match your inner perception of yourself.

Your pool of potential partners immediately shrinks because, while the dating pool for middle-aged men is probably quite large, the dating pool of women-attracted women who are willing to accept male genitalia and are attracted to someone who's outward appearance is unusual is much, much, much smaller.

The decision to transition will limit potential partners, that's reality. No-one owes anyone sex. As humans we owe other humans respect, compassion and kindness, but not physical or emotional intimacy.

It's deeply offensive, that having made a serious life decision, they are unwilling to live with the consequences and make such efforts to shame women into making their bodies available.

You can't force someone to fancy you; not through blaming, shaming or aggression.

Well said.

Are there people around who believe that two male-bodied people in a sexual relationship could actually be lesbians if they say so? Is there no end to this madness?

Yes. I remember reading a blog post in which two trans identified individuals giving each other blow jobs in a parked car was described as "hot lesbian sex".

Standing with my lesbian sisters.
We won't stand by and see our sisters silenced or abused, erased from the narrative.
Courage calls to courage everywhere.

‘a woman has the right to express her own sexuality; which is not at all the same thing as the right to capitulate to male advances.’

Germaine Greer- the female eunuch.

Still relevant.

This has only just occurred to me, but I think it's relevant. Forgive me if its a bit unclear, I'm just working it out.

I think it's reasonable to posit that a majority of the population are mostly heterosexual, that us, their primary sexual attraction is to members of the opposite sex?

And that for pretty much everyone, sexual orientation is innate and, the occasional experiment aside, not conducive to alteration?

It seems that most people who transition in either direction, retain their primary sexual orientation - so straight men who become transwomen retain an attraction to women; gay men retain an attraction to other men, & etc.

If though, it is true, that gender identification is innate; whatever their biological physicality, that person is internally a member of the opposite sex, why does it appear that in defiance of population statistics, a majority of transwomen seem to identify as lesbians?

I did find some statistics, although there's a certain bizarro world experience interpreting them.

"This leaves less than ¼, or 23%, of transgender survey respondents identifying as straight. Trans people who are straight – trans women who are only romantically and sexually interested in men and trans men who are only romantically and sexually interested in women .."

I'd make the assumption that "straight" trans folk previous sexual orientation was likely homosexual, and the "homosexual, queer, etc" portion were mostly heterosexual in previous identities.
From here: www.thetaskforce.org/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-sexual-orientation/

My point is that sexual orientation is a much stronger component of human identity for most people, than their gender identification. Transitioning to live as a member of the opposite sex doesn't tend to alter orientation.

This makes it even more unethical for transwomen to argue that lesbians should ignore their sexual preferences in order to provide transwomen with sex.

You can't argue on the one hand, that your gender identity is innate and must be validated by everyone, but that other people's primary sexual orientation should alter to meet your demands.

Are they actually trying to sell the idea of “girl dick” 🤢 to lesbians by saying it’s like a strap on, but small, shrivelled, and probably won’t get hard??
If you need to write blog posts shaming and coercing women into shagging you, it’s probably a sign that you’re really shite in bed and need to start trying to relate to your sexual partners as real people and think about what they also might ike in bed, instead of viewing them as holes to be conquered.

It doesn’t matter whether one thinks sexual attraction is innate or not, women should have the right to refuse males for whatever reason, including males as a group.

Many heterosexual males choose to trans precisely because of sexual motivations, they get off on the idea of being sexually submissive, as they think this is what being a woman is about (this is clearly highlighted in the DSM V). Some even have sexual experiences with other men, due to thinking that this will make them more ‘feminine’ it is the idea of being submissive and thinking this is ‘womanly’ that is sexy for them, more than the sex of the person their self (J. Michael Bailey’s book details this). Many want to persuade lesbians to date them because they think think this is the ultimate in being accepted as a woman.

The problem with saying sexuality is innate is that it implies that homosexual people are somehow innately different to heterosexual people, which is not true, although the homophobic medical establishment keeps trying to prove we are. This leads to the idea that we somehow have a type of intersex condition, such as the opposite sex brain in our bodies etc, and leads to the idea that we should trans to correct it. It is one of the main reasons so many gay and lesbian young people are transing.

It is better to fight this by saying that women are entitled to reject males as a group for whatever reason. Personally I love and am attracted to women for many reasons, it includes sexual attraction, but is not just that, males are fundamentally different from females in many significant ways. I am very much aware of this and love and am attracted to women in deep ways, that encompasses many different aspects, males just cannot compare to females. It doesn’t matter how ‘nice’ the male is, or how ‘feminine’ he looks he is not and can never be a female, I will never feel the deep love, connection and attraction towards a male, as I do for females. Males don’t like to hear that, but I don’t care, lesbians don’t want them and never will, they just have to accept that.

Oh dear Stopthisnow, I wasn't trying to suggest that we're not all just human, I'm really sorry if that was how it came across, that was not my intention. I was thinking more that aspects of our personality are with us pretty much from birth and they belong to who we are and are not really subject to much change.

All people have the right to set physical and emotional boundaries.

Bumping for any doubters.

Link to a google drive of evidence, sent to Laurie Penny who was claiming that trans homophobia never happens, who ignored it. Surprise surprise.

twitter.com/Gnarly_Charl/status/1015904535003291649?s=20

Ereshkigal that's really sad and some comments are deeply disturbing. Trying to shame women to have sex with people they are not attracted to. It's also deeply homophobic, if it was being said about gay men they'd be an outcry, people would already be prosecuted I bet. But as usual, because it's women......same old same old.
It reminds me of Aesops sun and wind story. The wind is blowing hard to shame, force, humiliate, and make women do want they want. Which as usual boils down to "have sex with them".

Thanks for this thread everyone

I'm seeing so much gaslighting everywhere

This helps

I went to the Labour LGBT Trans website and downloaded their manifesto PDF. Proposal 14 calls for trans people who don't disclose their trans status prior to sex to be immune from prosecution for rape unless there was an active intent to lie. They compare this failure to disclose trans status with a failure to disclose criminal convictions, bankruptcy, or prior marriage.

Last time I looked, you didn't have sex with someone's criminal record, bank balance, nor decree absolute, but with their body, and so disclosure of matters pertaining to the body is not comparable to disclosure of other things. This is rape culture, endorsed by the Labour Party, and prioritises the sexual access of trans people (who are usually trans women, i.e. males) over the right to informed refusal and informed consent of others (e.g. the Pride lesbian protestors).

Glad I left Labour. #labourlosingwomen

Standing with my lesbian sisters.... a woman standing for women

This is horrible coercive abusive nasty rapey homophobic bullshit and it needs calling out from the rooftops.

It so does... and I would be interested to hear from younger lesbians (yup my friends are older and no longer actively dating) about what proportions they feel are

1. Going along with it ... dating transpeople
2. Becoming politicised and keen to speak up AGAINST it
3. Just fading gently from the scene, quietly, going back behind closed doors and becoming invisible as public lesbian spaces no longer feel safe to them

I realise this will be a totally non representative sample but I would be interested in any anecdotal evidence... I have no idea but suspect group 3 is the largest...

You have no right to refuse.

Except we all do, always, and for the most quioxotic of reasons, or for no (articulated) reason at all.

rad-trans-womyn.tumblr.com/post/136823597752/terf-fantasy

and

transgender-uber-alles.tumblr.com/post/141035789689/radfems-arent-real-lesbians

bd67th

That's appalling. That is permission to rape, right there.

"I thought she knew"
"It was obvious"

These will be the difference in court.

What possible justification can there be for not telling a lesbian you're a man if you're about to have sex?

I read one blog post of a transwoman whose female partner found out right when they were about to have sex, and refused on that basis.

The TW said something like

"... I know it was wrong, but I just couldn't help it, I hit her in the face. She was undermining everything about me, my credibility my identity blah blah ( I can't actually remember the wording).

Turning down a man for sex when you're just about to have it, can be incredibly dangerous.

The Labour Party deciding that they fully approve of putting women into this situation is absolutely disgusting.

Ereshkigal

That list is chilling.

I can't lay my hands on the CPS endorsed propaganda going into schools that said some lesbians like blowjobs. In schools. Given to children.

Grooming.

*defence not difference

I’d just love it so much to seduce a terf cisbian, but have her find out I’m trans once things get hot and heavy. (Maybe she’d suddenly feel my clitty being hard or something; that’d be cool) But then have her still want to reluctantly let me fuck her with my clitty anyway and then cum inside her.

Hope posting this extract from one of the Tumblrs bd67th linked to doesn't contravene talk guidelines. It shouldn't do, as it's a transwoman's own words about themself so can't be transphobic, though it's revealing.

This is dreadful - I feel really upset for lesbians at the moment

It's as if each time a lesbian wishes not to date or have sex with a tw she must show it's a 'proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim' and must only do so on a 'case by case basis'.

This thread is truly unbelievable - I thought a lot of this was militant types on tumblr but to see the LRB and the Labour Party...! Coupled with the self-ID consultation I feel utterly disheartened.

Standing in solidarity with lesbians, this is absolutely horrendous.

The consent thing has sickened me all day.
DH is a police officer - I'm going to get his law book out later and have a look at exactly what they're trying to do here. Current understanding is it's to do with evidential presumptions (consent is presumed to be absent if there is deception).