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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

338 replies

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 17:56

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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OvulaRasa · 29/06/2018 16:38

Typical double thought tactics. Trans has nothing to do with sexuality. Any comparison with homosexuality is nonsensical. Trans is an identity or feeling not a sexual orientation. Homosexuality has to do with loving people of same sex as you, not wanting to pass as a different sex to the one you were born into.

Conversion therapy is conversation therapy and that could be the answer to some very distressed people. Why can't you have both?

SquishySquirmy · 29/06/2018 17:18

If a young teenager came out, and told you that they thought they may be homosexual it would be very wrong to try to "cure" them.

I also think it would be very wrong to forbid them from ever questioning their sexuality again in the future.
eg, "You said you thought you might be gay (or straight) at 13, you can't go back on that".
Because although most teenagers do know their sexuality at this age, it is possible to be confused. It is rare, but it happens.
Luckily you can be gay/straight/bi without making permanent changes to your body. Sexuality is complex and not everyone fits into neat little boxes.

But taking puberty blockers or undergoing surgery has permanent effects. It is not fair to push children towards this option without really exploring every other option first. Exploring the other options first is not conversion therapy, and really should never be compared to the barbaric practice of "curing" homosexuals.

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/06/2018 17:20

Adding gender is a grave mistake.

Conversion therapy for gay people is wrong. We agree on that I hope?

Right: scenario. Young woman questions gender identity. She is autistic and doesn’t ‘fit’ female stereotypes. She’s finding she is attracted to other girls.

Which is more ethical?

Allowing that young woman to grow through puberty and perhaps realise she’s a lesbian, which receiving psychological support to understand that society’s stereotypes around gender are toxic.

Or 2. Telling that young woman she’s actually a boy, starting puberty blockers (irreversible negative effects, including cognitive damage, osteoporosis, joint damage, metabolic damage etc) and channelling her down a path that has no exit ramp?

Option two- that IS conversion therapy.

So how will that be reconciled in law with banning gay conversion therapy?

R0wantrees · 29/06/2018 18:48

I am glad that the Memorandum of Understanding has come up.

I've been curious about what it is, how it came to be.

When the Transgender Trend Schoolkit was released earlier in the year, I remember it was accused and condemned as advocating conversion therapy. Is that right Snappity?

I think there was a significant letter in a medical journal which was connected... can't remember the details. It did contribute in the early weeks to a belief that the TGT toolkit was 'unsound'.

Mossandclover · 29/06/2018 21:29

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OldCrone · 29/06/2018 21:51

When the Transgender Trend Schoolkit was released earlier in the year, I remember it was accused and condemned as advocating conversion therapy.

There is only one mention of 'conversion therapy' in the document:
The issue of ‘transgender kids’ has become a political social justice issue and anything other than affirmation of a child’s ‘gender identity’ has been painted as ‘conversion therapy’ by health organisations pressured by activists.

Didn’t a certain male lanour women’s officer misread the word ‘conversation’ in the schoolkit?

There is only one mention of the word 'conversation':
Empathy and understanding can be expressed through listening both to the child who identifies as transgender and to other children who may be confused or worried, and by acknowledging children’s feelings without judgment. At the same time teachers need to be sensitive about the context of any conversations and make professional decisions about when to draw the line and when to seek advice.

Conclusion is that the people complaining about it hadn't actually read it.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 07:40

Some TRAs claim that an approach that isn't affirmative can be 'conversion therapy'.

This may be both their perspective and a powerful allegation.

Important insight into the bigger picture can be gained by reading LM's writing on the matter:

I found a letter from an Alice, along with pages of information and statistics. The letter told me in no uncertain terms that I couldn’t become a woman: that ‘transgenderism’ was displeasing to God; and that by turning to prayer he could help me to embrace my ‘true male gender’.

The accompanying information presented studies and ideas such as that transitioning medically would make me more suicidal and was an inadequate treatment; testimonies from ‘sex change regreters’ who underwent medical transition only to discover that it didn’t help them; as well as moral panics about the transgender lobby and the damage they are doing to our country’s young people. She also offered up some contact information.

I was sceptical, and a little internet searching confirmed to me that the information was little more than propaganda; which I put to Alice via the phone number she had provided. She offered me a session to talk and some weeks later we met up. I’m occasionally accused by online transphobes of ignoring differing perspectives in my role as women’s officer of my local political group. The reality is I’m happy to engage with any of the roughly 400 women I represent; and I’ve never not done so but with the accusation in mind I’d accepted...

(continues with desription of LM and Alice meeting which is worth reading carefuly)

(concludes)
"What struck me later was how rampant messages comparable to conversion therapy were on the internet. Sites like Twitter and Mumsnet are rife with this sort of transphobia; a lot of which is directed at me personally. The idea that trans women like me are really cis men is something that isn’t being challenged or tackled enough by these websites. These online trolls also actively push refuted or outright fake studies knowing full well they are false. They are often convinced something must have happened to us to make us trans and similarly ignore our experiences and evidence to the contrary.

Transphobes on Twitter are little better than the conversion therapists of the world. The main and perhaps only difference is the latter tends to ask for money. Further than just proposing laws to prohibit dangerous types of therapy; the government needs to take a tougher stance against this hate speech, especially when it has a conversion message. We know this form of bullying cause self harm and suicide; both of which I’ve been encouraged to try by these communities. The reality is trans youth are disproportionately harmed by these messages and much more vulnerable to receiving them.
I’ve been on a much needed break from social media, and it’s accompanying transphobia since that day in the library. I wouldn’t wish such a ‘therapy’ on anyone, especially alone and repeatedly. The experience has been a powerful reminder to me that I don’t have to defend my identity to anyone. I am who I am and I’m very proud to be me; and yet in the weeks following the meeting I can’t help but reflect on how right Alice was about certain things — like how my family would inevitably love me much more if I detransitioned and lived a lie. It’s worrying how these insecurities are harnessed as weapons.

If the ‘therapist’ is reading this. I hope our encounter made you reconsider all or any of your points; and I hope you take some or all of the following away: My name is Lily. I am a woman. I’ve been so since before I could put it into words because I was born this way. My identity doesn’t need fixing because it isn’t a problem. I love myself, I am loved and I will be loved by so many people because of the person I am; a person who has so much to offer this world — trans people have so much to offer. The world just has to let us."

medium.com/@lilymadigan/my-difficult-experience-with-conversion-therapy-74c2ad756d28

NB Please dont breach MN rules in commenting on this article

Starkstaring · 02/07/2018 07:46

Agreeing with someone that what they are doing is a healthy choice does not make it so.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 07:49

I think LMs article demonstrates some of the scope which may be included should gender identity be included in the proposed law.

Imnobody4 · 02/07/2018 14:47

Yes, I think this is the ambition -to make affirmation the only possible legal treatment.

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 02/07/2018 15:10

Interesting. Thanks for posting this R0wantrees.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 19:51

Jeremy Corbyn
"Labour is calling on the Government to commit to a full ban on sexuality and gender identity conversion therapies. This cruel practice has been allowed to spread fear and hatred in our society for far too long."

twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1013781974681554945

Urgent:  banning gender identity conversion
R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 19:57

Independent article linked above:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-theresa-may-gay-conversion-therapy-lgbt-action-plan-theresa-may-a8425581.html

Whilst the focus of the article is on gay conversion therapy see reference to memorandum of understanding and reference to Malta's progressive legislation.

(extract)
"Several organisations, including NHS England, the British Psychological Society, and the Royal College of Psychiatrists published a “memorandum of understanding” in 2014 describing conversion therapy as “unethical and potentially harmful”.

Despite campaigns and attempts by backbench MPs to ban the practice there are currently no laws against the practice and the LGBT+ charity, Stonewall, suggests there is evidence that individuals continue to experience the therapies.

The organisation’s “Unhealthy Attitudes” report, published in 2015, claimed that one in 10 health and social care staff have witnessed colleagues express the belief that sexual orientation can be “cured”.

In 2016, Malta became the first European country to outlaw conversion therapy after the country’s parliament voted unanimously for a bill which detailed fines and jail sentences for any individual found guilty of trying to “change, repress or eliminate a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and/or gender expression”.

thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 20:10

Despite campaigns and attempts by backbench MPs to ban the practice there are currently no laws against the practice and the LGBT+ charity, Stonewall, suggests there is evidence that individuals continue to experience the therapies.

They should know since they advocate transitioning away the Gays & Lesbians.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 21:25

Seems this topic will feature on Victria Derbyshire Show tomorrow at 10am.

Today it focussed on children and young people who have or or questioning their gender identity:
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294478-Victoria-Derbyshire-show-today-transgender-children-buying-time-by-delaying-puberty

foxyliz26 · 02/07/2018 22:50

Let me get this straight, most of the women on this thread are advocating banning Conversion/Aversion Threpays for Lesbians and Gay adults

but want to allow same Aversion/Conversion Therapy for small children ?

as a lefty feminists , my first reaction was to report this thread , but its important Advertisers and mainstream people see the type of people there are now on mumsnet

who want to see little children treated in the 21st century

and I am not a activists other than against Clause 28 , FGM and womens issues all my life

Mossandclover · 02/07/2018 22:55

Foxy in answer to your question: no. I suggest you actually read the thread.

I see that you state that you are an activist against women’s issues all you life. I had already suspected as much.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 23:11

Foxy
James Kirkup refers to comments by The Tavistock clinical lead Dr Polly Carmichael and GIDS service:
(extract)
"The total caseload for the service rose 2,078 per cent in seven years. The number of assigned females being referred rose 3,500 per cent in seven years. Why have the numbers risen in this way? Is there a clear and undisputed explanation, which would render Lord Tebbit’s suggested research into causation redundant?

This is an issue addressed by Dr Polly Carmichael, who runs the GIDS, in a recent talk to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. In her thoughtful hour-long lecture, she said this:

“The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

(In other words, these are girls who do not readily identify with the predominant idea of femininity and are sexually attracted to biological females, and who would, a decade or two ago, have grown up to consider themselves lesbians.) Dr Carmichael’s conclusion:

“The truth is we don’t know, but we need discussion in order to be thinking about what this could mean.”

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

There is an embedded link to the lecture Dr Carmichael gave to the to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. here:

thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 23:12

We are opposed to transitioning away the Gays and Lesbians.Aren't you?

fractalplimsoll · 03/07/2018 01:03

Conversion therapy for homosexuality is apalling. What is the harm to anyone if someone is gay/ lesbian? Wondering about your sexuality does not require making lasting physical changes beforehand.

But there are so many things we don't properly understand about trans people's diffuclties, and there is not merely one type of trans person so clearly there should no be just one solution.

There are also other MH illnesses that can present with identity/ gender issues such as the complex and serious DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder, (formerly Multiple Personality Disorder) which I have wanted to mention a few times now (and NC to do so) and is frequently misunderstood and mis-represented, especially in the media.

DID sufferers have frequently suffered severe abuse, often sustained sexual abuse and is thought to be exacerbated by the neglect, (intentional or not) of care givers, seemingly the child feels severely trauamtised and utterly alone, with poor/ no attachment figures/ healthy role models or anyone to help them.

To severely paraphrase, the traumatised child brain 'copes' with this overwhelming horror by splitting off into parts (aka alters). A time goes on, these parts may be any age (child and adult) and sometimes opposite sex, and of a variety of often contrary or even hostile personalties, who generally do not evolve in their outlook but remain 'stuck'. It is a survival strategy and tremendously complex and painful for sufferers, who often live in a state of internal conflict and may have MH crises in adolescence and middle age as DID is an energency strategy, not suited to the complex real world.

For some people this leads to developing opposite sex/ gender parts or feelings of dysphoria for a vareity of reasons (out of disgust for 'the body'; opposite sex alters who are 'stronger' and can defend; or who not at risk ie the paedophile does not abuse girls,;or as a way of putting distance between similarities between vicitm and abuser if of the same sex - I will not grow up to be that/ I am afraid of being that/ idealsing the opposite sex as 'safe'). Parts can be utterly dominating of other parts at times, for good or for bad, and there is often amnesia between parts.

It can be unreasonably difficult to get treatment for DID even though it is real, recognised and well documented (the NHS have The Clinic for Dissociative Studies etc) and has no none of the prominece of trans issues, despite having very serious consequences for many sufferers and high rates of suicide. Most psychologists/ psychotherapists/psychiatrist are woefully under-educated about the condition, and possibly are actually afraid to treat it becasue of the complexity, and it leaves sufferers confused, desperate and vulnerable.

I also believe it is under diagnosed in men.

It would be utterly apalling if anyone who actually has DID was misdiagnosed and steered to a trans pathway simply because therapists are afraid to ask questions, especially in children, or are frightened by the constant references to suicide (by the client and in the trans information) and feel emotionally balckmaied and string armed by the law to employ the unquestioning affirmation method.

I know people with this illness and they have said they are frightened by what is going on. One person said that were they a teenager now they can see that they would have been put on a trans pathway, but now although still suffering in many ways, they did not go on to develop opposite sex alters.

I understand that for some people the pain of dypshoria, suicidal thoughts etc, are only eased through transition as a survival strategy, but it is so complex that it should not go unquestioned.

There is a valid argument for not allowing 'deep' therapy until the person is in a more stable state of mind, but because there is so little help with day-to-day managing from the NHS/ social services, some people never reach a safe/ stable state and so end up being denied any treatment at all. Possibly a more stable/ dominant state could be one that is opposite gender. But I really worry here that transtion is seen as the end point and people go without the help they need.

There are trans people who do have DID many of them blogging etc and the confusion and distress is as clear as it is for non trans DID people, but obviously not every DID person will even have opposite sex alters at all; and nor does every trans person suffer dissociation although it is strongly correlated; it is very complex, but to simply 'aaffimr' (appease) and not gently and safely explore possibilites with vulnerable people is cruel and abusive in my mind.

Thank you to anyone who read to the end of this. I am scared by the wide range of impacts of rolling out selfID etc.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2018 01:10

fractalplimsoll

Have you seen the memorandum of undertanding which was secured last autumn?

www.psychotherapy.org.uk/news/leading-uk-psychological-professions-stonewall-unite-conversion-therapy/

Interested in your thoughts.

fractalplimsoll · 03/07/2018 01:38

I have only just heard of this R0wantrees. It is awful.

Sexual orientation is not a mental illness obviously, by any criteria.

But I am apalled at those organisations haivng signed up to this when actually there is so much evidence of mental illhealth in trans/ identity issues.

So many co-morbid conditions (I don't count depression as depression in this case can be a reaction to other MH issues, or not related at all) Narcissitic Personality Disorder is prevalent - and surely any MH professional can see the downsides of appeasing/ affiriming a person with such a condition, even if it is to 'save their life'.

I do believe trans people when they say they suffering is great and have compssion but as a GC woman, and a person with repsonsibility to others, inc women and children, I am scared by this.

I have only known one trans woman personally and not well, so cannot speak to their personal MH, but I believe that there is a full spectrum of MH issues linked with gender dysphoria and find it incredibly troubling that it is demedicalised as if it were nothing.

There is a blog which I won't link to was it wouldn't be fair, but the person is trans gender and 'plural' ie with DID, and they have a similar stance to some 'trans women are women' people ie DID isnt a pathology, neurodiversity is cool, not broken, my body is a 'spaceship that my mind(s) inhabit'. They don't subscribe to having been female all along, but that it becasue they are happy to be embrace being 'plural'.

I don't agree with this and think it is the illness talking, a survical strategy, but I will empathise with their very real pain and struggle for survival, even if I have real concerns about their method of doing so. It is not 'wrong' to be DID or trans, but it does have serious downsides.

But back to your Q, MH care is generally apalling and often nothing more than a sticking plaster or box ticking exercise so I am not that surprsed that these agencies have found a way to make complex and intransigent MH issues someone else's problem. (no pun intended)

Pratchet · 03/07/2018 02:02

We have totally lost this. The Memorandum will be signed into law, including 'gender identity', and it will become illegal not to offer 'affirmative care' to children from extremely young ages.

It will become illegal to not put kids on these drugs which damage and sterilise them.

OP posts:
ItsalmostSummer · 03/07/2018 02:14

This whole topic is getting out of hand. Talk about experimentation set up to go wrong. Sure so let’s all just push people towards the idea that I’d you believe something, it’s real/actual. No help needed or given because it’s the persons rught to believe it. Hmm right and I’m an alien and you all have to accept it and treat me as special because that’s the law. Sure.

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