Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

[Pratchet]

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

The conflation of sexual orientation (objectively real) and gender identity (entirely subjective) is designed to confuse.

There is no scientific evidence to back up the claim that children who adults label as trans benefit from 1) being told that the laws of biology don’t exist (ie, it is categorically impossible to change sex) 2) being put on drugs that prevent them from developing naturally and going through puberty.
Watchful waiting and loving assurance that a child is perfect just the way they are has never been proved to be dangerous. But this is being labelled as conversion therapy for gender identity.

There is loads of scientific evidence that conversion therapies for sexual orientation don’t work and are cruel.

The paper you linked to R0wan even acknowledges that the scientific evidence referred to relates ONLY to sexual orientation

“The MoU updates one released in 2015 at the Department of Health, which focused exclusively on sexual orientation”

Penny Mordaunt has just been on BBC Breakfast. She took care to state they were looking at conversion therapy which included extreme practices such as corrective rape, forcing people. Exploring sexual orientation or gender identity was not conversion therapy.

I certainly feel we need to make sure this approach is maintained and encourage it, since TRAs seem to think that any sort of questioning about ones trans identity is transphobic and wrong.

New Statesman article:
www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2018/07/will-uk-ban-gay-conversion-therapy-work

Thank hulo

Thank you hulo

And quarks. Very reassuring.

Conversion therapy has been discredited by professional counselling and psychology bodies. You cannot 'cure' someones sexuality, you cannot turn gay, lesbian bisexual, pansexual, asexual, androsexual, gyneosexual, skoliosexual to be hetronormative straight people. Likewise you cannot 'cure' someones gender identity, their sense of self identity through conversion therapy. You can only force them to hide who they really are from you. This law has nothing to do with care pathways for transgender people seeking help to be seen by society as their true selves, be that within or out of the gendernormative binary. This law would prevent people / organisations forcing their will on others, be it for religious/ political or other reasons. Think about it! Did anybody need to tell you about your own sexuality or gender identity? I bet the answer is NO, because we do not need others to tell us who we are. All humans are individual and unique and sexuality and gender identity are core parts of who we are, this law should be passed as soon as possible.

because we do not need others to tell us who we are

errrrrrrrr ....... some people are desperate to have outside validation of their identity.

I actually think TRAs are unhinged. And I will be guarding my children so carefully to make sure they do not get caught up in all this madness.

HilaryMGSDC
Are you familiar with the Transgendertrend School toolkit?

There has been some confusion as to whether this was regarded as supporting 'conversion therapy' or whether there had been a mis-reading as it discussed 'conversation'.

I am aware of the memorandum of understanding mentioned previously in this thread but don't completely understand the scope.

I'm still unclear what exactly is under reference here. Telling a homosexually oriented person they are in fact heterosexually oriented, and employing certain techniques to reinforce that idea is 'gay conversion therapy', yes?

So what would qualify as 'conversion therapy' for my daughter who questions whether she is in fact a boy because she hates her body so much and has mental health problems? Would it be counselling to help her come to terms with her body as it is, allowing her to present to the world socially however she wants to? Or would it be guiding her down a path of body modification that would cause irreparable damage, because of her unhappiness with all the things she perceives as 'girlish' but feels pushed towards because of gendered role modelling?
Because one of those approaches seems straight up abusive to me, and therefore much more appropriately called 'conversion therapy' and scorned.

Just to clear up a few points on this thread.

A previous post stated that Gender Dysphoria was a mental health condition. This is factually incorrect.

Historically there was a mental health condition called Gender Identity Disorder. This condition was originally treated by various methods to convert the individuals gender identity to be hetronormative, in a similary way that homosexuality was considered to be a MH disorder that could also be cured by forms of conversion therapy.

As with Homosexuality it was discovered you cannot cure ones internal sense of self, be that sexuality or gender identity. Both sexuality and gender identity were then defined as not being a MH disorder.

People still need medical assessment and treatment with gender identity so when it was declassified as a MH disorder and named Gender Dysphoria it remained under the MH classification in the World Health Organisations classifications

World Health Organisations ICD 11 classifications.
Gender Dysphoria is now called Gender Incongruence

Gender incongruence, meanwhile, has also been moved out of mental disorders in the ICD, into sexual health conditions. The rationale being that while evidence is now clear that it is not a mental disorder, and indeed classifying it in this can cause enormous stigma for people who are transgender, there remain significant health care needs that can best be met if the condition is coded under the ICD.
www.who.int/health-topics/international-classification-of-diseases

There is also a discussion about what conversion therapy is for gender identity.

So to be clear:

Conversion therapy is an umbrella term for a therapeutic approach, or any model or individual viewpoint that demonstrates an assumption that any sexual orientation or gender identity is inherently preferable to any other, and which attempts to bring about a change of sexual orientation or gender identity, or seeks to suppress an individual’s expression of sexual orientation or gender identity on that basis.
www.psychotherapy.org.uk/about-ukcp/public-policy/conversion-therapy/

Can Any Type of Therapy Change a Person’s Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity?
www.nclrights.org/bornperfect-the-facts-about-conversion-therapy

No. In 2009, the American Psychological Association conducted a comprehensive review of the published literature on these practices and concluded that they are not supported by any reliable evidence. In fact, the APA found that the opposite was true: “The results of scientifically valid research indicate that it is unlikely that individuals will be able to reduce same-sex sexual attractions or increase other-sex attractions through SOCE.”

Similarly, in 2000, the American Psychiatric Association published a statement concluding that: “In the last four decades, ‘reparative’ therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure.”

How Bad is Conversion Therapy?

Conversion therapy can be extremely dangerous and, in some cases, fatal. In 2009, the APA issued a report concluding that the reported risks of the practices include: depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame, social withdrawal, suicidality, substance abuse, stress, disappointment, self-blame, decreased self-esteem and authenticity to others, increased self-hatred, hostility and blame toward parents, feelings of anger and betrayal, loss of friends and potential romantic partners, problems in sexual and emotional intimacy, sexual dysfunction, high-risk sexual behaviors, a feeling of being dehumanized and untrue to self, a loss of faith, and a sense of having wasted time and resources.

The risks are even greater for youth. Minors who experience family rejection based on their sexual orientation or gender identity face especially serious health risks. Research shows that lesbian, gay, and bisexual young adults who reported higher levels of family rejection during adolescence were more than eight times more likely to report having attempted suicide, more than five times more likely to report high levels of depression, more than three times more likely to use illegal drugs, and more than three times more likely to report having engaged in unprotected sexual intercourse compared with peers from families that reported no or low levels of family rejection.

Conversion therapies are dangerous.

People of all ages should be allowed to develop and understand their own gender identity and sexuality. Within supportive environments they will grow to understand themselves and when ready tell their families friends and peers. They will seek the support they need to be themselves wherever that leads.

You can love your family, friend and peers but you cannot walk in their shoes or live their lives for them. Just love them for who they are.

FloralBunting, If your child is in need of support, the best way forward would be to listen to your child's concerns and try to understand them. be supportive of your child and believe what they tell you without judgment.

If you feel your child would benefit from a psychological assessment or counselling then do seek professional help. This would not be to persuade the child they were X but to listen to them.

If the professional advice is to see a Gender Development Specialist then follow their advice - see gids.nhs.uk/parents

International guidance has been deliberately designed to remove the stigma of mental health but maintain it as a condition which insurance companies will pay out for.

People of all ages should be allowed to develop and understand their own gender identity and sexuality.

HilaryMGSDC Does developing and understanding one's gender identity require any medical treatment?

HilaryMGSDC
Thank you for your links etc.

I am aware of gay conversion 'therapy' and some of the horrific experiences people faced. Yesterday on The World at One there was an incredibly moving account by a caller who described what had been done to him.

As I mentioned above though, I am still a little confused with regards the scope. I'm not sure if you are specifically aware of the Transgendertrend School's toolkit?

I know that there are a range of opinions as can be seen in this Guardian article:
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

I am still unsure though if it was regarded and condemned as being specifically associated with 'conversion therapy'.

Hilary, thanks for the advice. It may reassure you to know that I do entirely support my child without judgement, though it is profoundly depressing to have to say that and it not be assumed tbh, given what I have already written.

The MoU makes clear that it is not intended to stop psychological and medical professionals working with trans and gender questioning clients from performing a clinical assessment of suitability prior to medical intervention
Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis. ( in children) WHO
Any professional treating children should be concerned with correctly diagnosing and prescribing treatment. Automatic affirmation would be as unacceptable as 'conversion therapy. The latter would be something of the level of child abuse not watchful waiting. A high proportion of children do not transition and to push affirmation could do great damage to these children. It is not the same as sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are two entirely different things. You can’t just lump them together and say that everything applies to one therefore applies to the other.

There is zero scientific evidence that ‘gender identity’ is innate. There is zero scientific evidence to support a blue / pink brain theory that would prove that you could have a brain / body mismatch.

To tell children to believe in things which have no basis in reality is misguided at best. To pathologise healthy children and to label and stigmatise them with terms made up by adults is wrong and cruel.

Let children be children. Let them play with whatever toys they want, wear the clothes they want, socialise with who they want. Let them understand you can be an astronaut, a plumber, a ballerina or a childminder regardless of what sex they are.
Let them know that none of those things mean there is anything wrong with them . Don’t teach them to hate their perfect healthy bodies. Teach them body positivity. Teach them that there is no such thing as ‘born in the wrong body’ Teach them that they don’t need to take untested cancer drugs that will stunt their development (both physically and mentally) and that they don’t need to live a life where they will have to battle against their healthy normal body by taking dangerous medication for life and possibly amputate healthy body parts.

Teach them to love themselves and to accept themselves and reality.

Be yourself. Be natural. Be free. Don’t waste your previous time and health forcing yourself to fit into society’s s stifling stereotypes.

Apologies, not read whole thread... don't get something... genuine question...

Banning therapies which aim to change someone's MIND is completely different from banning therapies which aim to change someone's BODY - so why is this thought to be something potentially good for the anti-trans cause?

There is no anti-trans cause just a pro-science, pro-evidence, pro-reason cause.

Identity is social. It develops socially and impacts on others. We all get a say in identity. It is a conversation, a narrative. If we aren't professionals it isn't therapy.

R0wantrees,
I have read the Transgender Trend Toolkit, but I disagree with its conclusion.

I did not recognise it as a toolkit but rather document pushing material to persuade readers of the authors concerns and beliefs.

Beliefs which have been tried in the past, pre 2010 equality act.
Beliefs that failed trans children by not providing a supportive environment for leaning.
Advocating no affirmation, which goes against professional advice given by specialists in gender development.

There are several toolkits for schools which give good advice.

Two things are happening. The government is funding gender clinics and organizations that teach children and parents that if their children choose to play with gender coded toys they are that gender and need affirmative therapy.
The government is considering a law that outlaws subjecting Gays and Lesbians to conversion therapy while mandating affirmation therapy of gender non conforming children.
Anyone with a brain will tell you that most of the gender non conforming children they are targeting are not trans. They are children who have not yet learned the adults rules of what they are allowed to like.