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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

338 replies

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 17:56

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

OP posts:
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Mossandclover · 28/06/2018 22:21

As understand that one form of conversion therapy for homosexuality is to make the person transgender. Will this be banned?

drwitch · 28/06/2018 22:24

So gay conversion predicated on the idea that people that want to act or be as certain way are unnatural and would be happier if encouraged to be normal - clearly wrong

transgender conversion behaviour predicated on the idea that individuals would be happier adopting gender conforming roles - clearly wrong (its feminism 101)

transgender conversion making you realise that other people may have assumptions about you that do not fit your internal narrative - this is called growing up

NewbieSpartacus · 28/06/2018 22:25

Snap you're being deliberately obtuse and you know it. It isn't discrimination to say that treatment should be looked at differently for different conditions. As 'a lesbian' you're aware that gayness isn't an illness and therefore no treatment is necessary, hence banning conversion therapy. Whereas being trans does require treatment and discussion of what the best path would be. And we all know that offering a child identifying as trans any kind of talk therapy or questioning has been equated to conversion therapy. Hence we don't want that ban to extend to trans kids, lest we be prevented from seeking therapy for them in any other way than assertively promoting transition. It's very simple really. I will watch and wait for sense to prevail.

thebewilderness · 28/06/2018 22:33

They have banned conversion therapy or really any treatment to cure Gays, Lesbians, and Bisexuals, of a sexual orientations.
Gender identity disorder is classed as a medical condition. Banning all treatments but affirmation means limiting the treatment of a medical condition in ways that will harm the patient.

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 22:41

Yes can I make clear I disapprove mightily of 'conversion therapy' for homosexual people.

But previously 'gender identity' has been lumped in with this, and that's wrong.

It silences therapists because they fear that nothing other than affirmation is actually illegal. This is a dreadful thing to do to therapists dealing with children especially.

Especially when you think of the numbers of teen girls announcing a male identity. In the current highly sexualised, febrile teen world, its highly likely that girls would seek to opt out of being a target for harassment and abuse. That needs to be explored and discussed.

So no to banning what really should NOT be called 'conversion therapy' for children identifying as other than their biological sex. All options must be left open for a therapist to help the child be happy in their body.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 28/06/2018 22:49

Snappity
Many children who think they are transgender are just showing the first signs that they may grow up to be gay or lesbian. If their transgender identity is affirmed by a therapist, this could be seen as a kind of gay conversion therapy.
4thwavenow.com/2015/04/11/research-evidence-most-gender-dysphoric-children-grow-up-to-be-gay-or-lesbian/

Wanderabout · 28/06/2018 22:52

It's no different to LGB conversion therapy.

It's completely different.

We are aware other countries have passed this and there is lobbying worldwide from TRAs. That still doesn't make it a good idea. Or necessarily a bad one. But it needs definition, research, reasoning etc in its own right not just smoke and mirrors and noise. See various questions and comments above just for starters.

SarahCarer · 28/06/2018 23:01

Nobody here would advocate trying to persuade a transgender person to adopt a feminine persona when they identity as masculine or vice versa. That would be conversion therapy. Encouraging free self expression and radical self acceptance is not conversion therapy but could be deemed so by TRAs if it doesn't affirm the presence of a pre-gendered brain in all human beings.

mancheeze · 29/06/2018 01:16

You said it precisely Prawn

And I agree

'Quite the opposite. Calls for the immediate medicalisation of GNC children are for a form of conversion therapy in that it forces children who would otherwise likely have grown up gay or lesbian into quasi heterosexuals on lifelong medication. '

Starkstaring · 29/06/2018 07:31

So "internalised transphobia" (NHS GID Service consultation) is something that a transgender individual needs help with, but "internalised homophobia" doesn't exist?

thebewilderness · 29/06/2018 07:52

Gender dysphoria is classified as a medical condition which people seek treatment for while homosexuality is not a medical condition and people do not seek treatment for it.
Either of these groups might want to seek mental health treatment for self hatred.

lurker33 · 29/06/2018 08:25

thebewilderness , you posted exactly what I was thinking....

I thought gender dysphoria was a medical condition, in which case would it not be nice to be able to cure it?

I would not advocate forcing people to act in certain ways depending on their sex, which is what I imagine conversion therapy for trans people would be. In fact, feminists have been fighting against this type of thing forever.

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld · 29/06/2018 08:43

"Nobody here would advocate trying to persuade a transgender person to adopt a feminine persona when they identity as masculine or vice versa. That would be conversion therapy."

[snort]

Somebody on this thread did exactly that. Or did you miss the part where the poster demanded that trans children should be forbidden from dressing how they look, presenting how they like, and changing their name because, something something, won't somebody think of the children?

lurker33 · 29/06/2018 09:01

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld , sorry I missed that.

If that's what they were saying then I can't agree with them.

What I can say is that I am extremely uncomfortable with medically transitioning children.

OldCrone · 29/06/2018 09:06

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld
Do you think it's right that children should be taught that they can change sex?

PencilsInSpace · 29/06/2018 09:50

There's a good Transgender Trend article on the problems with the MoU here.

During the time James Caspian was a trustee for the UK Council for Psychotherapy he acted as a consultant to the working group drawing up the MoU (Daily Mail article):

Everyone in the working group — including James — agreed conversion therapy should be banned.

James, however, wanted the memorandum to specifically accept that some people regret their transition and that there are patients who might have other underlying psychological issues.

Without spelling out these irrefutable facts, he feared health professionals could be prevented from exploring the potentially deeper reasons for a patient saying they wanted to change sex.

The committee, which included health professionals and representatives from the outspoken LGBTIQ (where 'I' stands for intersex and 'Q' for queer) group Pink Therapy and the Association of Christian Counsellors, eventually decided not to include James's recommendations.

The Memorandum of Understanding will take effect this month. Effectively, it could prevent a therapist, when presented with a person who wants to change sex, from exploring any possible ulterior reason behind their decision. This disturbs James greatly.

'Any ethical therapist wouldn't try to impose their view of how a client should be — but surely they should be able to explore if gender identity is truly the psychological issue,' he says.

'We need a framework that allows therapists to freely explore other underlying issues that may be present before they start gender reassignment treatment, without the fear of being accused of conversion therapy if they do so.

'The Memorandum of Understanding is saying we must accept whatever gender identity a client says they are without question.

'I was one of the few people involved who understood transition from a clinical perspective and was not a campaigner, so I had no axe to grind — just concern for the clients and the professionals,' he says.

'When I looked at the ban on conversion therapy, I said, 'If you're not careful, you're going to make people think they can't ever question what somebody coming to them is saying and that's dangerous'.

'Already counsellors have contacted me to say they're worried that if a young client — say a 16-year-old — comes to them with a number of mental health issues or a history of sexual abuse and says, 'I want to transition', that it won't be safe for them to say, 'Well, let's look at this sexual abuse you had.

Could that have anything to do with the way you feel about your body?', because that could be construed as conversion therapy.

'One psychotherapist who works with young people called me last night to say she is worried this memorandum could simplify things to a scary degree.

'She said: 'If all I did was affirm my patients were trans without exploring any mental health issues they might have, I don't think I'd be able to help them properly.'

'Equally, people are afraid it might not be safe to work with someone who wants to detransition, i.e. reverse their sex change.

'Let's say a trans female, who is no longer happy in their gender, goes to a counsellor to say they want to go back to living as a man. Could that counsellor be accused of conversion therapy if they help them?

'I kept arguing for specific wording to say, 'We do acknowledge some people do regret their transitions and reverse them, or change their minds.'

But every time I tried to put that wording in it was rejected.

'There are lots of activists within the LGBT community and I sensed that everyone was scared of them.

'One of them said to me on the phone, 'Are you going to block this memorandum?' Of course I didn't want to block it, but I wanted to make it safe for everybody.

'It was a long phone call and quite intimidating. I felt whatever I said was being interpreted as a threat.

I felt this person wasn't prepared to listen to anything I was saying. It literally made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. That's really powerful that sort of fear.

'The problem is that the activists feel only they have any right to say anything and anyone who disagrees with them walks on eggshells for fear of being accused of being transphobic.

I had sleepless nights over the memorandum. I would wake up at 3am worrying about it.

'At that point, I honestly felt I was the only person in the world who was carrying the interests of people who had transitioned and regretted it. Nobody else involved knew what I knew about how these people were suffering, because I was researching them.'

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld · 29/06/2018 10:30

OldCrone

So you don't want to address the point and have decided to try and derail by trying your hand at a ridiculous and deeply biased canard.

No, not interested. And in case my view isn't clear, "No" isn't the beginning of a negotiation, it's a statement in it's own right.

OldCrone · 29/06/2018 11:40

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld
Not trying to derail. I was trying to be brief while typing on a tiny keypad, but obviously my meaning wasn't clear. So now I'm sitting with a proper keyboard in front of me I'll explain a bit more.

You said: Or did you miss the part where the poster demanded that trans children should be forbidden from dressing how they look, presenting how they like, and changing their name

I think you were probably referring to the post upthread where someone else said: Children are going on puberty blockers. That necessarily has to be done before puberty, ie. not after 4-5 years of therapy, and parents have reported on here that therapy simply isn't being offered to explore these kids issues, it's straight to affirmation, changing presentation and name at school etc. ie. definitely not waiting for other mental health issues to be eliminated or controlled.

The children being referred to here are being told that the best thing for them is to be affirmed in their transgender identity, and to change their name accordingly.

I actually disagree with that poster that changing presentation is any sort of issue - I think both girls and boys should be able to present as they wish in terms of clothes, hairstyles, etc. Changing names informally is also not an issue - many people do this, using a nickname instead of their given name. There is no reason why teachers in schools should not use a preferred name when speaking to the child; the child's given name only needs to be used for more "official" purposes such as exam entries.

There is evidence that children who undergo a social transition early in life find it difficult to go back to living as their birth sex if they realise that their transgender identity was just a phase. My view is that the name change is relatively trivial, but the instant affirmation of their transgender identity and use of opposite sex pronouns is problematic.

Implicit in this instant affirmation and change of pronouns is the idea that you can actually change sex. Particularly in the case of younger children who have not yet learned enough biology to understand that this is not possible.

Time to bring out the GIRES penguins. This organisation is going into schools with their delightful penguin stories, teaching the youngest children that they can change sex, and it's as simple as saying "I'm a boy" if you're a girl or "I'm a girl" if you're a boy. And magically, you can change sex.
www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Penguin-Story-Trans-Boy.pdf

So we finally get to the question I asked in my last post: Do you think it's right that children should be taught that they can change sex?

Snappity · 29/06/2018 12:14

So much scaremongering on this thread.

Do you agree that it should be illegal for an organisation or particular therapist advertises to advertise that they can "take the gay away" or "take the trans away"? And that any therapy they then do provide should be illegal?

Do you agree that if an organisation or particular therapist has a policy of attempting to discourage transition or a non-straight sexual orientation in all, or substantially all cases, that any therapy they provide should be banned?

Maybe there is more, but that's a start for discussion.

OldCrone · 29/06/2018 12:27

What's your opinion on transing the gay away, Snappity?

Calls for the immediate medicalisation of GNC children are a form of conversion therapy in that it forces children who would otherwise likely have grown up gay or lesbian into quasi heterosexuals on lifelong medication.

SquishySquirmy · 29/06/2018 12:40

"So why aren't you questioning what conversion therapy is for lesbians? Or getting us lesbians to detail why it is bad - or even worse - asking us to make a case for conversion therapy by setting out its aims?"

In my opinion...
any effort made to persuade lesbians that not being sexually attracted to penis-people makes them a bad person is a form of conversion therapy.
hth.

lurker33 · 29/06/2018 15:23

Snappity, is it not you that is scaremongering?

Did you actually read what Pencils posted above or have you just assumed that therapists are only going to want to 'take the trans away'?Confused

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/06/2018 15:40

Ace post, Pencils. The trans critical health professionals website is now members only due to the real risk to their jobs of discussing their grave concerns about childhood transition.

I still can't quite believe that this is even a thing. Both my DPs were HCP. I grew up hearing how they spoke about and cared about their patients. The posters on the now locked site spoke in exactly the same way. But in a world where people seek to give an <a class="break-all" href="https://gendertrender-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/aydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAE4AQ%3D%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F08%2F21%2Faydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit%2F&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F08%2F21%2Faydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit%2F&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F08%2F21%2Faydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit%2F" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">underage girl with Down's syndrome a double fucking mastectomy, taking a gentle, responsibile, evidence based approach can risk a HCP's career.

Imnobody4 · 29/06/2018 16:10

Snappity
Do you believe a good professional should have an open mind and explore all avenues to agree the best outcome with and for the patient. This may or may not be transition?
Sexual orientation is a completely different subject, please stop conflating the two.