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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

338 replies

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 17:56

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

OP posts:
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CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 28/06/2018 21:33

Yes Old Crone also asks the kind of questions I would like to be discussed a bit more.

Also I’ve skimmed through your original link and the study it refers to, and I’m still not clear on the numbers of specifically trans people that undergo or are expected to undergo conversion therapy? The study only refers to LBGTQ people which if my understanding is up to date sort of means everyone. Do we have numbers for trans people specifically?

Snappity · 28/06/2018 21:35

You seem to be convinced that "conversion therapy" for trans people is a bad thing. Can you explain what is meant by "conversion therapy" in the context of trans people? What would be the aims of the therapy? What would be the desired outcome?

So why aren't you questioning what conversion therapy is for lesbians? Or getting us lesbians to detail why it is bad - or even worse - asking us to make a case for conversion therapy by setting out its aims?

Wanderabout · 28/06/2018 21:44

That court case write up differs from the way the actual case discussed and presented the issues which was around medical advice about the best interests of a dysphoric child, not 'living authentically' or avoiding conversion therapy. Which demonstrates exactly the issue with defining what gender identity conversion therapy even means and how using it as a lens shifts the focus from 'what is best for this child' to 'this child must trans that is the answer.'

The memorandum is causing exactly the same sort of issues for lots of professionals. The ethical issues need a proper review rather than being nodded through by a few individuals in the current climate of threats and silencing.

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 28/06/2018 21:47

So why aren't you questioning what conversion therapy is for lesbians? Or getting us lesbians to detail why it is bad - or even worse - asking us to make a case for conversion therapy by setting out its aims?

Is this your way of saying you can’t answer these questions?

Imnobody4 · 28/06/2018 21:50

Snappity
As far as I can see this is about approaching treatment with preconceived ideas not a specific treatment, so I can't see how it can be banned. It's just good practice.
' Does the MoU mean doctors always have to say yes to requests for medical intervention to aid transition?
No. The MoU makes clear that it is not intended to stop psychological and medical professionals working with trans and gender questioning clients from performing a clinical assessment of suitability prior to medical intervention'

Snappity · 28/06/2018 21:52

Is this your way of saying you can’t answer these questions?

It is my way of saying that I find your questions discriminatory.

Snappity · 28/06/2018 21:53

No. The MoU makes clear that it is not intended to stop psychological and medical professionals working with trans and gender questioning clients from performing a clinical assessment of suitability prior to medical intervention'

Then nobody can object to making it illegal.

Snappity · 28/06/2018 21:54

The memorandum is causing exactly the same sort of issues for lots of professionals. The ethical issues need a proper review rather than being nodded through by a few individuals in the current climate of threats and silencing.

Why, when the main medical bodies have already said it is unethical?

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 28/06/2018 21:57

It is my way of saying that I find your questions discriminatory.

Eh?
Discriminatory against who? In what way?

Snappity · 28/06/2018 22:00

Discriminatory against who? In what way?

You are challenging banning conversion therapy for gender identity but not sexual orientation. I see that as discrimination.

FireFartingDuck · 28/06/2018 22:02

What is conversion therapy for gender identity, Snappity? Could you describe it for me, as I'm really unclear what it is you object to.

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 28/06/2018 22:04

You are challenging banning conversion therapy for gender identity but not sexual orientation. I see that as discrimination.

No. What I’m doing is asking someone who believes that conversion therapy for gender identity should be illegal to explain how they have come to that position and what they believe constitutes conversion therapy for trans people. What I’m beginning to suspect is that you have no idea.

Snappity · 28/06/2018 22:05

What is conversion therapy for gender identity, Snappity? Could you describe it for me, as I'm really unclear what it is you object to.

Another person querying it for trans people but not lesbians and gay men.

Wanderabout · 28/06/2018 22:06

Why, when the main medical bodies have already said it is unethical?

Good question, this needs further scrutiny, in particular around the points I and others have raised above.

Wanderabout · 28/06/2018 22:07

Another person querying it for trans people but not lesbians and gay men.

This is your definition of gender identity conversion therapy? Querying what?

Imnobody4 · 28/06/2018 22:08

Snappity
Conversion therapy for Lesbians is predicated on eliminating that sexual orientation. There is no orthodox treatment because it is not an issue.
Gender incongruence however involves medical intervention and therefore entails proper diagnosis. The are completely different things.

thebewilderness · 28/06/2018 22:10

We already know what sex conversions therapies consist of for homosexuals who are put through conversion therapy.
Some things that are done to young girls who come out as Lesbians are beyond horrific.

What we do not know and would like explained is what gender conversion therapy consists of.
It is ok to say if you hate the idea and don't really know what it is.

Wanderabout · 28/06/2018 22:12

That is a definition of gay conversion therapy. It is a completely different thing. Cutting and pasting isn't really an argument. Where is the protocol, practice, definition and research on gender identity conversion therapy? What even is gender identity? What is it you are concerned people will be converted from and to exactly? How does this happen and who does it? Why is this problematic?

Wanderabout · 28/06/2018 22:13

Sorry last post was about Stonewall link.

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 28/06/2018 22:14

Yes, in case I wasn’t clear (I did put it in my first post) I understand conversion therapy in terms of homosexuality. That’s why I’m not asking about that. None of your links answer the questions either. They really only refer to conversion of sexuality. It’s like the trans bit has just been bolted on.

QuarksandLeptons · 28/06/2018 22:15

Thoughtful article from a student councillor here www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14753634.2017.1400740?scroll=top&needAccess=true
which discusses how unconscious homophobia may be understood to be driving the rush to label people as being born in the wrong body.

An excerpt:

“Last year, I attended an excellent conference organised by the Birkbeck
Counselling Association on ‘An exploration of sexuality and psychoanalytic
thinking the in twenty-first century’. It was refreshing to hear the speakers
Alessandra Lemma and Leezah Hertzmann acknowledge that the psychoana-
lytic world has a long history of simplistic homophobic attitudes towards
LGBT people, which is now seen to be a largely outdated and shameful
legacy. Until recently, the psychoanalytic training institutions excluded LGBT
applicants on the basis of sexuality, seeing us as psychologically flawed, or at
least ‘immature’. Apparently, this no longer happens, at least not overtly. This
shift is to be celebrated; most right-minded people would be behind this. However, it did set me thinking about what happens when this kind of prejudice
that has to be repressed to fit with prevailing (external) social trends, when
personal (internal) anxieties have not been resolved. And this brought to mind,
a worrying phenomena I have recently become aware of, and that both speak-
ers referred to, which is in the rise of the transgender movement of the unin-
tended, perhaps unconscious intolerance of diversity that fuels demand for a
quick fix to a very complex issue.

There has been a big increase in my line of work, university counselling,
in the numbers of young people accessing services with issues around gender.
I have been concerned by what we are being asked to do as counsellors and
therapists in terms of unquestioning support for young people to make irre-
versible changes to their bodies, without exploring what’s happening at an
unconscious level. In my service, we have had complaints and accusations, that
we are trans-phobic, on the grounds that, rather than automatically accepting
that students who present with this issue are ready to start a process of gender
reassignment, we take a stance of helping them to think things through and
explore what it means to them. What they seem to want is for us to accept that
this is the right decision and to provide emotional support as they begin the
process. But for some of these young 18 and 19 year olds, this would, I
believe, be an ethically irresponsible stance to take. ”

FireFartingDuck · 28/06/2018 22:16

Oh Snappity, you spin and spin yourself in circles. I genuinely don't know what you are referring to.
I have had conversion therapy for homosexuality. It's regressive and unpleasant and involves no actual communication with the person being 'converted'. It's downright abusive.

What kind of thing are you talking about with regards to trans-presenting people? Is there an organisation putting people in a room, and praying bible verses over them for hours, casting out 'demons' and making them reveal sexual fantasies so they can be shamed?

Because the posters here aren't advocating anything like that, so I am asking what you think this thing you have called 'conversion therapy' actually is in relation to transpeople?

QuarksandLeptons · 28/06/2018 22:18

To clarify, the article would add weight to the observation that in many instances, a person wishes to try to become the opposite sex as they are deeply uncomfortable with being same sex attracted.

Snappity · 28/06/2018 22:19

It's no different to LGB conversion therapy.