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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Reality check

385 replies

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 06:54

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Reality check
OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Pratchet · 29/06/2018 08:47

Well said flowers.

I think this is why so many of us don't or haven't reported certain posters. Even in that post above, there's so much that's 'not allowed' here. But that terrible bitterness, anger and wish to punish millions of women for what one woman did, that doesn't look healthy. I don't think that seething level of rage against women should be in intimate female spaces where females are vulnerable. I know people who have 'transitioned' in the same direction and they're decent, sound, sympathetic people. Not everyone has this fury and bitterness. But too many do, and it's not a great recommendation for self ID.

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 29/06/2018 08:51

You, on the other hand, are choosing to incite hatred of us because of what we are

terfisaslur.com

AngryAttackKittens · 29/06/2018 08:51

Please don't report Damn's comments and ask for them to be deleted. It's far more useful for people to be able to see what they said, so they can understand what that means for the rest of this debate, than for us to end up with a confusing Swiss Cheese thread.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 29/06/2018 09:03

You, on the other hand, are choosing to incite hatred of us because of what we are -- something over which we have no control, no choice, and which very few (if any) of us would have chosen if we had the choice.

Nobody hates you. Nobody on here knows you - apart from your ex/current wife ? if she is still here.

There will obviously be the odd person that 'hates' trans people, like the odd person that hates any type of group.

But you are choosing to come into a Feminist board, and continue to tell women they are doing feminism wrong. I'd suggest that you could just choose to focus on your own life and let women on here make their own minds up, find their own voices, and choose their own way of thinking.

It is an incredibly male thing to do; to police women. Don't you think? If you want to 'pass' - the main way of doing that is to stop behaving like the thought police and just live your own happy life.

You have already told us that you want to shut mumsnet down - to stop women having a space to talk.

You cannot have it both ways - you cannot be 'trans' when it suits and try to shut a woman's space down, and be a 'woman' when it suits because the very act of trying to shut a woman's space down, confirms the fact that you do not think of yourself as a woman.

Your own actions are the ones that are showing you are not a woman, and do not think of yourself as one; not ours.

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/06/2018 09:06

You do understand the definition of incitement to hatred doesn’t include non personal criticism in a general fashion?

Me saying that I have serious concerns over how Christianity is a patriarchal religion that has some troubling views on women is not, for example, inciting hatred against Christians.

Incitement to hatred is stuff like tommy Robinson outside grooming trials spouting off, or people telling lesbian marchers at pride that they will be ‘hung By the neck.’

That’s incitement.

Acorninspring · 29/06/2018 09:17

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 from my mostly lurking on the fwr board of Mumsnet, I do not see posters inciting hatred.

I see them raising their valid concern that there should be certain, very limited, circumstances by which we as a society continue to segregate by sex rather than gender, in order to protect women and girls when they are at their most vulnerable.

This necessity arises from the issue of male violence against women and girls.

This is what posters here are discussing.

bananistheanswer · 29/06/2018 09:24

this "war" is something that you have created, that only you can stop, and that it would be in everyone's best interests if you did

An apt description of the attack on women & girls rights. Do let us know when the penny drops & you back the fuck off from this mendacious assault on these hard fought for rights.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 29/06/2018 09:27

LangCleg
Women and girls are my priority. Always will be
Then why spend so much time and effort attacking trans people? Completely irrelevant.

R0wantrees · 29/06/2018 09:31

A reminder of Justine Roberts' statement to The Times April 15th 2018:

'Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts: Transgender activists try to curb free speech on site'

"The founder of Mumsnet says transgender “thought police” are pressurising advertisers to withdraw from Britain’s most popular parenting website because it allows the discussion of trans topics.

Justine Roberts said she had been approached by three significant advertisers who had been threatened by trans groups.

“Transgender activists have contacted Mumsnet advertisers and said they will be organising a boycott of their products if they don’t remove their advertising from Mumsnet,” Roberts said.

The website had told the advertisers that it “works hard to keep the discussions civil” and was determined to let them continue.

“What’s worrying to me is the thought-police action around speech and the shutting down of the right to be able to disagree and immediately labelling it as transphobic,” Roberts said.

The threats are the latest move in a campaign by transgender activists to inhibit discussion of potential legal changes that would allow people born male to self-identify as women.

Feminists say the plans threaten women’s rights and protected spaces. Trans activists say that to oppose them is bigotry. They have pressurised dozens of venues into cancelling meetings on the subject.

One meeting that went ahead at the House of Commons led to a complaint to the parliamentary standards commissioner against David Davies, the MP who organised it.

Trans activists bombarded the Commons authorities with demands that the meeting be cancelled with one, Ariel Moss, boasting on Twitter that she “rang them three times today under different voices and phones”.

Sometimes attempts to break up meetings have turned violent. Last week a trans activist, Tara Wolf, was convicted of assaulting a feminist who was attending a rally against the proposals.

Mumsnet, which has 12m monthly users but does not hold physical meetings, has become a prominent online forum for debate on trans subjects. A recent discussion about whether self-identified trans women should be allowed to use female-only cabins on the Caledonian Sleeper train made national news.

Roberts said: “A significant minority of our users feel very strongly about women’s rights and very uneasy [about the proposals]. This is an issue that needs to be discussed and that’s why we’re prepared to take any potential advertising hit.”

“There is a section of the hardline trans side which thinks that any discussion at all is by definition transphobic, but we’ve explained we’re working very hard to keep it civil,” she said.

“We have some guidelines, we keep people within [them], we ban anyone that’s persistently mean and that’s the way we’re handling it for now. Hopefully we’ll be able to hold that line because we think it’s important.”

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/06/2018 09:40

No one is attacking transpeople.
Women are concerned over the effects on women and children’s safety, privacy and dignity, and the effect on child safeguarding.

I’ll repeat what I wrote earlier about ‘starting a post with a statement that needs rebuttal.’

*now hang on there just a moment because I see this technique a LOT. It’s a statement placed in a post that assumes a negative and builds the rest of the post on this and this does the following - again I speak in generalities

  1. It sets the tone as factual when it’s not. It’s a statement designed to set the tone as ‘x has a record of hate and hostility.*
  2. It forces JADE (justify apologise defend or explain behaviour.)
  3. It derails.

So I read that, and now what am I about to say, as Ms. Jo Average? I’m now at pains to post some sort of justification that I’m not engaging in any kind of hatred at all. I’m quite indignant about it! I go to great lengths to prove I am not! So now my energy is wasted on a rebuttal of a point I shouldn’t have be making because speaking about gender critical matters is not hateful. Nor is concern for safeguarding of children. Nothing I’ve said is hateful.

So I’m on the back foot, defending myself as women so often do, the thread is derailed and the default position is now that we are all so hateful that we need to think about the police combing through our posts.

do you see what is happening here? these are control techniques.

It’s not a nice thought is it?

  • create false statement that sets a position
  • detail and force apology/justification
  • create implicit threat involving power structure/law enforcement.*
Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 29/06/2018 09:40

Tellseveryone......
You cannot have it both ways - you cannot be 'trans' when it suits and try to shut a woman's space down, and be a 'woman' when it suits because the very act of trying to shut a woman's space down, confirms the fact that you do not think of yourself as a woman.
If I could have chosen not to be trans, I would have done. But I didn't have that option. I fought against it for decades, and eventually failed. I know some of you think the world would be a better place if all trans people just quietly killed themselves (as far too many have done) but I am pleased to say that my daughters don't agree with you.
And I am not trying shut a woman's place down: I am hoping that a website that is hiding behind a veneer of feminism in order to publish material that invites hatred will be shut down. Quite different.

R0wantrees · 29/06/2018 09:45

and this was the response to Justine and Mumsnet publically declaring their commitment to free and civil discussion of something so 'important' to many concerned about women's rights:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3222471-AIBU-to-be-extremely-proud-of-Justine-Roberts-Mumsnet-right-now

See also current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3291425-Gender-Critical-Lurkers

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/06/2018 09:46

I know some of you think the world would be a better place if all trans people just quietly killed themselves (as far too many have done).

Good grief...thats ridiculous hyperbole. The use of suicide threats as a control technique is well established.

Nobody - NOBODY on here has ever said, insinuated, wanted or encouraged such a thing. No one.

This is about the safety, privacy and dignity of women and children and child safeguarding.

Janie143 · 29/06/2018 09:47

Adapted rule fits the situation in today's climate
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no men anyone is a hate crime I will leave you to identify who may be anyone

bananistheanswer · 29/06/2018 09:49

I know some of you think the world would be a better place if all trans people just quietly killed themselves

Classic lie there damn. It really fascinates me how excessively hyperbolic the trans narrative consistently is. Do you think posting those lies endears you to lurkers? Do you think people reading this stuff suddenly think MN posters are actually posting such comments? Or does it just show you up as someone with a 'problematic' acquaintance with truth & facts?

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 29/06/2018 09:51

And I am not trying shut a woman's place down: I am hoping that a website that is hiding behind a veneer of feminism in order to publish material that invites hatred will be shut down. Quite different.

Again, if the women using it believe it is a feminist board, then who are you to come along and say it isn't feminism - you are all just doing it wrong?

I know some of you think the world would be a better place if all trans people just quietly killed themselves (as far too many have done) but I am pleased to say that my daughters don't agree with you.

See this - this is the rhetoric that is brought up to try and coerce women into submitting. It is intimidation.

You know this is abusive behaviour right?

See the Power and Control wheel posted yesterday by Lang.

littlbrowndog · 29/06/2018 09:51

Naw we not doing that dam. No way
No hatred o4 violence being asked to be used here against any person
But if ur wife beat u u should have gone to the police
The relationship board can help with this so if u post on there the folks there can help

proudestmumm · 29/06/2018 09:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 29/06/2018 09:54

Bowlofbabelfish
No one is attacking transpeople.
FALSE; There are 1000+posts every day on MN doing exactly that
Women are concerned over the effects on women and children’s safety, privacy and dignity, and the effect on child safeguarding.
Only because a handful of antitrans propagandists have managed to con them into believing that a threat exists. (CF '"rivers of blood" speech)

- create false statement that sets a position
- detail and force apology/justification
- create implicit threat involving power structure/law enforcement.*
Thank you for that extract from the anti-trans training manual. I have seen you and others using that technique, but never realised that it had been written down and published.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/06/2018 09:54

I always wonder if they expect anyone to actually believe the hyperbole or if it just makes them feel good to engage in it.

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/06/2018 09:55

And I am not trying shut a woman's place down:

Excellent. It did seem as though you were, but I’ll take your word for it.

I am hoping that a website that is hiding behind a veneer of feminism in order to publish material that invites hatred will be shut down. Quite different.

Which website is that then, since you’re not trying to shut down WPUK?

Or are you saying that WPUK are engaging in incitement to hatred? That’s quite an allegation.

I see nothing of the sort in their website or actions. Transpeople are encouraged to speak at their events and their entire premise is respectful debate.

What specifically are you objecting to?

Does the fact that women have places, events and Fora to speak and assemble count as incitement to you?

littlbrowndog · 29/06/2018 09:57

Cripes dam

U still got a lot of anger going on

Go to the police abou5 ur wife.

LangCleg · 29/06/2018 10:00

Damnthatonestakentryanother2

Then why spend so much time and effort attacking trans people? Completely irrelevant.

Hi Damn. I think it is fairly evident by now that our views are not simpatico. Additionally, I find your tone to be domineering and often triggering to other FWR members, many of whom are my friends. Therefore, I would prefer not to interact with you. If we find ourselves contributing to the same threads, please do not address me directly or quote my posts in order to engage me. This is a clear boundary. Please respect it. I won't be responding further. All the best.

BeyondRaggydoll · 29/06/2018 10:01

Oh look, my favourite website has a bit about JADE too...

outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/06/2018 10:02

There are 1000+posts every day on MN doing exactly that

Where?

I will remind you that criticism isn’t hateful.

It can seem like that to some people - for example the concept of narcissistic rage links into this, but women assembling and speaking is neither incitement to hatred nor an attack.

I can tell you where there is plenty of transphobia - several other online forums, predominantly male based. I’ve had a look round there and it’s not for me - too much unpleasantness and not enough focus on the rights of women and children, and indeed also transwomen/transmen to live safely in society. As I’ve said, countless times, I’m firmly beside transpeople being accepted in society and breaking down our oppressive gender stereotypes- at the same time I worry about the impacts of potential legislative changes on the safety of women and children and that’s what I want to have a public discussion about.

So I wonder what it is about MN that enrages you so? Because this is predominantly a female space? Why is your anger directed here and not at these other online places which genuinely do have some hateful and unpleasant material on?