Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

It's not up to me it's upto mumsnet

Maybe I didn't type that correctly so to clarify I ment unless people want to attack people in a personal way. Then it's mumsnets forum and it's there rules not ours

Mumsnet has been wonderful throughout the 21st century for helping women to get out of abusive relationships and situations with abusive males.

Long may that continue.

Maybe I didn't type that correctly so to clarify I ment unless people want to attack people in a personal way. Then it's mumsnets forum and it's there rules not ours

Doesn't seem to stop the threads attacking Robbie Williams, Jo Wylie et al...it is only a certain type of someone that isnt allowed personal attacks evidently. I take it you have never been on aibu...why would you of course, nothing of interest there...

"My partner started talking to a group of supportive women and then she stopped doing what I wanted her to" is a tale as old as time.

I expect if any of those people came on here and reported posts made. Against them mumsnet would take them down. I don't go on aibu I read the film and TV sections a lot occasionally post though current not upto date with TV good fight so don't want spoilers

Here's my philosophy:

Women who are living, breathing embodiments of the Duluth wheel are as rare as hen's teeth. That's why the crime statistics show such a stark difference in offending between the sexes.

If you encounter someone who is a living, breathing embodiment of the Duluth wheel - online or offline - you can be pretty sure that that person is not a woman.

I feel this is a reasonable rule of thumb for a woman existing in a patriarchal society scarred by male violence to live by.

(And here, once more, is the Duluth wheel.)

Lang, you are exactly right. Even I, with my universally lovely male relations, have had quite enough experience of the abusive ones to spot them very fast. It's a feeling you get when they interact. A real gut level feeling. It's chilling.

It comes across online too, though the current guidelines may occasionally prevent us from pointing it out when we see it.

And I totally understand why so many women curl up into a protective ball and stop interacting at that point, but if we don't push back against people like that we'll end up with a society based on what they want and what they think is reasonable. Which is a rather sobering thought.

Thank you waddle.

Z - formerly R - if you are the offensive poster on this thread, please take a look at what you are trying to achieve.
You have slated MN on your Twitter recently, which disappoints me. You have battled for heterosexual couples to be given the right to partake in civil ceremonies. This is quite right, and I thank you.
Now you are slating MN publicly for advocating women's rights.
Please look further than your nose. What do you want for your daughters?
Most of us, including myself, are fiercely defending the rights of women in general. This INCLUDES trans women, unquestionably.
However, we would like it if our daughters could get changed in communal changing rooms without seeing a penis.
I am old enough to deal with accidental penis revealing, but my daughters would be very concerned.
I prefer if women's spaces are penis free. Would you not agree to this basic request?
I'm not racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic. Genuinely. I just feel that women deserve the freedom to use changing areas that will not expose them to unwanted/unexpected male genitalia.
I'm fully behind the right to live as whatever you want. You can be a squirrel, a gerbil, the king of Spain. I don't care, honestly.
I just want my children/ other women to feel safe.
Right now, a lot of natal women feel unsafe, and that matters to me.
Does it not matter to you?

a tale as old as time.

Thanks Kittens, now I've got the fucking Beauty and the Beast song in my head.

Newbie, you're a total pig. I'd completely missed the reference and now I'm going to have dancing teapots in my head all night!

Oh, we can now say that transwomen are men and male? Did I get that right?

Ours is not even a view, it's knowledge. The knowledge that sex is binary, based on reproductive role and immutable. We don't need to 'move it mainstream'. It is mainstream

Said it brilliantly.

This reminds me that I got my first deletion because I said trans are (the sex that shall not be named)

Are you seeing this, lurkers?

Delurking to say yes, AngryAttackKittens. Oh yes, I'm seeing this and taking note.

I'm also noting what Damn and TRAs write, and I'm telling them that they have done the most to change my view regarding the trans debate. They were responsible for my peak trans awakening. I'm telling them that I won't be silenced and be told to accept their demands with no debate. I'm telling them that I won't deny science.

I'd prefer my young daughters didn't see penis in the swimming pool changing rooms.

Vile anti-trans propaganda from the usual cabal.

It's really not difficult to spot, is it?

Doing some good does not give anyone carte blanche to do harm.
If the harm that you are doing to trans people and there families contributed in some way to the good, then it might be tolerable. But it isn't. You are doing it because you get some perverse satisfaction out of trashing other people's lives.

But I still don't hate you as individuals: I hate what you have chosen to do -- and what you could easily choose not to do.

You, on the other hand, are choosing to incite hatred of us because of what we are -- something over which we have no control, no choice, and which very few (if any) of us would have chosen if we had the choice.

I'm not asking for your love or support, and I'm not "demanding" anything: I'm suggesting that this "war" is something that you have created, that only you can stop, and that it would be in everyone's best interests if you did.

Posie Parker asks:

"Does my 11year old daughter have the right to go into a female changing room and not see an adult penis?"

speech here:
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=23&v=CvdJ1VEdC7I

Seems saying you want mn shut down - removing vital support for unknown amounts of women - doesn't break talk guidelines.

Bottom right on the wheel - minimizing, denying, and blaming.

Women and girls are my priority. Always will be.