Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Surely some of these posts could be defamatory? MNHQ wouldn't want to be platforming defamatory material.

I mean, the posts about Woman's Place

No one is attacking transpeople.FALSE; There are 1000+posts every day on MN doing exactly that

And another lie.

Why are you here damn? Do you get your kicks from gas lighting?

Quite an eye popping thread

I'm all for transactivists being given the platform to speak, because it is always incredibly revealing.

But, frankly, this is difficult to read.

When you are forearmed with the knowledge of what coercive control looks like (DARVO, the Duluth Wheel, lies, hyperbole, etc), it's rather painful to see being played out quite so comprehensively.

It's well documented that trans people have a high rate of co morbid mental health issues. Narcissism being one of them. In fact the most prevalent, I believe.

It's little wonder that women conclude that this aspect is another reason to keep spaces segregated.

Damn acting this way is really no advert for what they are advocating.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

Bowlofbabelfish
women assembling and speaking is neither incitement to hatred nor an attack.
Watch the straw men go marching by!
I never said or suggested that it was. But to go on deliberately pushing false "facts" that encourage people to hate or fear trans people is.

So I wonder what it is about MN that enrages you so? Because this is predominantly a female space? Why is your anger directed here and not at these other online places which genuinely do have some hateful and unpleasant material on
I don't go trawling the internet looking for abuse.
But what annoys me about MN is the dishonesty -- the persistent repetition of the same old lies, the protestations of injured innocence when you are called out for it, the victim-blaming and DARVO.
And the huge readership makes it particularly dangerous. You make a big thing of some frustrated kid running off at the mouth to his few dozen followers on twitter, but seem to think it's OK to put far more dangerous material in front of hundreds of thousands of people on MN.

but seem to think it's OK to put far more dangerous material in front of hundreds of thousands of people on MN

What 'dangerous' material is that then?

Talking about biology is not dangerous
Trying to protect safe spaces for women and girls is not dangerous
BUT
trying to remove those protections is dangerous to women and girls
trying to shut down women's speech is dangerous
attacking and doxxing women simply because they don't agree with one viewpoint is dangerous

Damn, did you just misgender Ms Madigan?!

I'm suggesting that this "war" is something that you have created, that only you can stop,

Why don’t you help to work out a solution that meets everyone’s needs? That’s what will stop any ‘war’.

There has actually been a lot of agreement on here in the last few days. We have come to a bit of a consensus that women who have issues sharing with transwomen should be able to access segregated spaces. That’s a big deal.

Also on another thread we have worked out how self ID does in fact impact and have a bearing on the Equality Act.

When I say ‘we’ I mean me and other posters who have different views to mine, like Snappity and daimbars.

You aren’t going to get Mumsnet shut down so stop being so silly

When someone accuses other people of DARVO in response to having their own DARVO pointed out is that DARVO-ception?

But to go on deliberately pushing false "facts" that encourage people to hate or fear trans people is.

Which false facts?

What dangerous material? This isn't the Anarchist’s Cookbook, or Dabiq; it’s a parenting forum.

I believe we refer to Lily Madigan as ‘she’ by the way - those are her preferred pronouns.

But we do have quite a reach. You’re right on that. And isn’t public discussion on trans issues something that’s needed? I wish some of the issues I cared about were discussed more widely tbh, public discussion in an open and frank way is a good thing isn’t it?

I never said or suggested that it was. But to go on deliberately pushing false "facts" that encourage people to hate or fear trans people is.

Well come on then. Stop with the mudslinging and let's have it.

Which are the wrong facts, exactly?

Can you define what you mean when you say transwomen are women, by the word woman? Do you think human being can change sex?
Are you prepared to acknowledge that there are certain situations where women need to be separated from transwomen?

It’s like an infinite DARVO recursion loop, AAK. I expect the universe will implode in a puff of logic and rage any moment, which is a shame because it’s almost the weekend...

This is a serious safeguarding issue and if concerns about it and how girls have been 'forgotten' can't be discussed on Mumsnet and more specifically on the Feminism and Women's Rights board then where?

Times article:
(extracts)
"The guidance says that teachers should not tell parents if their child changes gender in school unless the child, who could be as young as four, gives permission. It also suggests staff should inform councils about parents who “struggle” with their child’s transgender identity, and says parents should not be told if their children are sharing rooms with transgender pupils.

The guidelines were produced by LGBT Youth Scotland and endorsed by the government and 16 local authorities. They advise that pupils “should be supported to explore and express their identity regardless of their age”. (continues)

"Ciarán Kelly, the institute’s deputy director, said: “It beggars belief that the Scottish government has authorised a state-funded campaign group to dictate to teachers what their obligations are and strip parents of responsibilities.”
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/threat-of-legal-action-over-pupils-transgender-rights-qqr2dk97v

Herald:
THE rights of Scottish schoolgirls are being undermined by rules allowing pupils to adopt a different gender and share changing rooms, it has been claimed, as it emerged schools are unprepared for the controversial overhaul.

A series of Freedom of Information (FoI) requests have revealed that councils have widely backed guidelines produced by organisations campaigning for the rights of transgender people but have not considered how the new approach will affect children – particularly girls

The new guidelines tell teachers that if a transgender pupil wishes to share a changing room with "other young people who share their gender identity," they should be allowed to do so.

"There is no reason for parents or carers of the other pupils to be informed," it adds.

The guidelines say young people should be able to compete in the sports events for the gender they identify with, and says if other pupils are uncomfortable using changing rooms or toilets with transgender pupils, they should use other facilities or wait until the transgender pupil is done.

However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact on other students has not been taken into account. (continues)

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action/

I always thought of myself as 'edgy in a cardigan'; I never thought I would be accused of being part of a group that is providing access to 'dangerous material'.

I mean, I cannot wait to see this receipt.

I have to go out to a meeting now; for goodness sakes someone screen shot this material for me and pop it on the other place. I won't sleep tonight without the knowledge of what this dangerous material is.

Do you think women should have to compete against transwomen in athletics? Never mind what the Olympics governing body says, do you think that's fair and equitable?

It's little wonder that women conclude that this aspect is another reason to keep spaces segregated.

Indeed. The real world is a dangerous place for women. Red flags are red flags are red flags. When someone waves them, see them.

Bowlofbabelfish

I will remind you that criticism isn’t hateful.

It can seem like that to some people - for example the concept of narcissistic rage links into this, but women assembling and speaking is neither incitement to hatred nor an attack.

Of course it's hateful. Women are TALKING. Having OPINIONS. ARGUING WITH (and comprehensively out-arguing) MEN. Demanding BOUNDARIES. Insisting that their voices are heard and their wishes are respected. Refusing to listen and defer to men.

All this is hate speech and must be attacked and stopped at all costs by the righteous rage of the patriarchal male.

And if you don't think that's what's going on here, then hang around a bit longer and read a bit more. That's exactly what's going on.

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1004682774920523776

Janice Turner asked:

"Two male-bodied trans gender runners came first and second. What do you say to the girls who train so hard but can never win? Yet can’t even say: this is not fair."

Watch the video of High School sprint competition until the end and look at the faces of the girls who come 3rd, 4th and 5th.

I wonder if sometimes, when trans people post on here, they are shocked because, in real life, they are on a mission of pursuing 'affirmation at all costs.'

This form is anonymous, it's huge, and its peopled by feminists, most of whom consciously disregard their socialisation.

When you are used to constant assurance, disagreement will feel like hostility.

Then when the same women expect you to explain your anger, you can't. Because it's based on a false premise.

When you are used to constant assurance, disagreement will feel like hostility.

Then when the same women expect you to explain your anger, you can't. Because it's based on a false premise.

The anger is based on the patriarchal assumption that the opinions and wishes of the dominant class should always be prioritised over those of the subordinate class, and the subordinate class should sit down and shut up and keep their pointless opinions to themselves. Only this is suddenly not working for some members of the dominant class as they think it should. The resulting narcissistic meltdowns are splattered all over the feminism boards.

Over the years I've hung around on probably all the forums where trans widows hang out, and there's definitely a script.

Read the very long stream of comments under <a class="break-all" href="https://gendertrender-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/04/23/so-your-husband-is-becoming-a-woman-advice-from-women-whove-been-there/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAE4AQ%3D%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F04%2F23%2Fso-your-husband-is-becoming-a-woman-advice-from-women-whove-been-there%2F" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this article. Very illuminating.

My oh my what a thread.
Damn thank you so much for all your posts. I hope no-one reports them.

Yes, please no-one report Damn's posts. In the event that Damn gets MN to delete their posts this thread will still be very telling.