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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Group of ‘women’ attack a man

498 replies

sundaynamechange1 · 26/06/2018 12:24

Shared on LBC yeasterday
here
Have a good look at see what you think

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Gileswithachainsaw · 27/06/2018 15:58

Well just had exact same response Angry

Not good enough LBC.

Why delete the comments if it's all true!

R0wantrees · 27/06/2018 16:03

but the policy change was apparently due at least in part to the profile of women offenders

it has been a long recognised fact that profiles of female offenders substantively differ from male offenders
(extract)
"Instead of women’s prisons, the government is to pilot five new residential women’s centres providing stable accommodation while they complete court orders and access to education, training and support.

The government cited statistics showing almost 60 per cent of female offenders have experienced domestic abuse – an estimated 24 to 31 per cent have dependent children and those in jail or on probation are more than twice as likely to suffer mental health issues as men.

Almost half of all female prisoners in England and Wales say they committed their offence to support the drug use of someone else, the Ministry of Justice said, while many more are substance abusers themselves." continues

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-prison-uk-community-sentences-centres-reoffending-rates-children-funding-a8418271.html

BesmirchingMotherhood · 27/06/2018 16:17

When these people for whom we have no mutually acceptable name get arrested and taken into custody, does some poor female officer have to search them?

Does she get to refuse? What about her rights?

R0wantrees · 27/06/2018 16:36

Does she get to refuse? What about her rights?

See the incident below reported in December 2016 re prisoner Eastwood: Article:
"The 32-year-old was originally sentenced to one year in a youth offenders institute for dangerous driving.

While inside he strangled a fellow inmate to death with shoe laces and was handed a life sentence.

The female G4S worker, who has not been named, wrote in a resignation letter to her bosses: “I’m writing to you about an issue I’m deeply concerned about.

“I was carrying out my night shift duties on 27th October at Wishaw General Hospital.

“I was on with and the prisoner was Daniel Eastwood.

“Throughout my shift Mr Eastwood made me feel very uncomfortable and intimidated as he was able to disclose personal information about myself and my family"

Eastwood went on to identify as a woman and transferred to female estate.

(Sophie) Eastwood and (Alex) Stewart, both trans women, had to be seperated, reported here:

"Despite their new female identities neither have had surgery, and fellow inmates complained that they felt intimidated around the pair because of their behaviour.

A source said: “It got beyond the joke. No one has a problem with transgender people. But they do have a problem when they suspect that the transgender identities are being used as a way of getting a cushier time in prison. It totally undermines real transgender prisoners... continues

.”Despite both Eastwood and Stewart living as women in the female section of Greenock Prison neither has had gender reassignment surgery.

The source said: “Some of the lassies were getting more and more uncomfortable and complained."

Discussed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

RogerAllamsFangirl · 27/06/2018 16:39

R0wantrees, you must be mistaken, because this never happens.

R0wantrees · 27/06/2018 16:44

RogerAllamsFangirl

I've only shared the reported news.

seafret · 27/06/2018 17:26

datun, r0wantrees posted some info on the PACE Act yesterday I think re how police are supposed to record sex/ gender, which was extrememly worrying eye opening. Mainly I think it said that it would be self defined unless there was clear evidence that they did not spend the majority of their life that way. So seemingly no GRC needed?

That said the police statement to LBC clearly confuses sex and gender when talking about classifying people as the sex they present, wich would er, be penises = male sex, not dresses = female sex. Its so frustrating.

Strigiformes · 27/06/2018 17:43

I got the exact same response to my email complaint as jackofjill. Talk about passing the blame.

LighthouseSouth · 27/06/2018 17:46

reports like this will leave people really thinking that women did this

www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/crime-court/four-women-arrested-after-man-attacked-at-leicester-square-tube-station-1-5576762

infuriating.

LastTrainEast · 27/06/2018 18:28

Well I contacted my MP about this as an example. I'm not expecting much of a reaction, but it's worth doing. You want them saying to each other "You know I've been hearing a lot about this lately"

thebewilderness · 27/06/2018 19:20

@Alexa488 Tue 26-Jun-18 21:39:30

I've developed deep respect for you over the last few months Bewilderness but that comment is unfair and dismissive of me and what happened to me.

Since my comment was deleted I cannot check to see what I might have said that offended you.
I apologize if there was something I said that gave you the impression I was talking to, or about, you.

ScarletBegonias · 27/06/2018 21:27

Glad to see you're still with us, bewilderness.

I noticed a number of deletions and thought you might have been placed on the naughty step for the duration.

Datun · 27/06/2018 21:55

@HopeMumsnet

Thanks for the reply. I don't know the background to the specific issue you're speaking of, so I'll leave it there.

HelenaDove · 28/06/2018 02:17

I wonder what some of the old school journalists like............John Pilger think of this kind of reporting.

SardinesAreYum · 28/06/2018 08:00

Googled this morning the story seems to be reporting more widely.

The real issue with this is that many people won't read / watch and this type of story then supports MRA views that women are "just as bad", violence is a "people problem" not a male problem etc etc. It obfuscates the agent, misleads people and will shift the overton window over time. Which I sometimes wonder might be deliberate - there's a lot of MRA compatible stuff with all of this.

Anyway Sun has comments from the top:

And this is why ladies and gents, you aboslutely hit a girl back if she hits you.. they are more than capable of doing damage to men, there not delicate little things, they attack ya drop them simple as.

A chap I knew to be a doorman/bouncer said women were the worst, they refuse to listen to reason, ignore all advise, the red mist comes down and they go ballistic. He cited handbags with metal edges, stiletto heels, nails like talons,biting etc. Needless to say he no longer works the doors.

But but but, it's only men who commit violence against women, never the other way around...that's what they would have you believe !

released under further investigation, it is there plain to see, even if he did something that does not warrant a response like that, no doubt they wont get jail but if it was fellas doing it to a lone girl, years theyd get

and so on

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 08:09

will shift the overton window over time. Which I sometimes wonder might be deliberate

It is completely deliberate. There is no doubt.

The words 'sex is defined by reproductive role and is unchangeable' are unspeakable across the BBC, Channel Four, ITV, the Guardian, Buzzfeed, Huffpo and most radio stations. It's absolutely deliberate.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 28/06/2018 08:33

Have all the news outlets taken down comments? I saw some before but can't see any at all now. The only place that has any is YouTue.

SardinesAreYum · 28/06/2018 08:47

The Sun has comments up, the ones at the top are the ones I just pasted.

This follows up with the reports including BBC that sex crimes are massively up amongst women, reported unquestioningly.

Are they up or are some male stats in there
10 rapes I think it was, which points towards penis people
Headlines were all about women committing sex crimes and how awful. with footnote about # of male crimes which were 1000 times more!
Societies all over the world have it entrenched to blame women for male violence - she was askign for it, she provoked him, was leaving him, what was she wearing etc. This is another more direct way of doing it, literally say it was a woman that committed the crime. And this will be consumed unquestioningly as it's what people want to hear - that women are really the problem, and the root cause of all the trouble in society.

R0wantrees · 28/06/2018 08:48

Its worth re-reading the comments by the newspaper editors when recently interviewed by The Home Affairs Committee (even as reported by PN)

Article from Pink News
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/26/british-newspapers-anti-transgender-moral-panic/

"UK newspaper editors have defended themselves from criticism after a surge in negative coverage of transgender issues led to accusations of inciting “moral panic.”"

Representatives of The Sun, The Times, the Daily Mirror, the Daily Express, the Daily Telegraph and Metro all appeared before Parliament’s Home Affairs Committee’s hate crime inquiry on Tuesday to answer concerns that the media has fuelled hostile sentiment towards minority groups.

Labour MP Stephen Doughty used the opportunity to challenge newspaper bosses over a spike in of negative stories about transgender people.

Former Labour leader Ed Miliband recently warned about a “moral panic” on transgender issues in the British press – after months of negative stories and columns relating to transgender people.

Echoing the concerns, Doughty said: “There appears to me to be a concerted effort by certain publications at the moment to promote some extremely unpleasant transgender hate material.”

Labour MP Stephen Doughty
Doughty continued: “There’s the Daily Mail [November] 2017 headline, ‘Church: let little boys wear tiaras,’ and The Sun in November with: ‘Now kids, it’s Alice in Transgenderland,’ ‘The skirt on the drag queen goes swish, swish, swish’ and ‘Trans classes for kids aged 2’ on the front page.

“Very recently, in March 2018, there was ‘Tran and wife.’ You’ll recall the horror of the couple involved. I thought it was absolutely disgusting, quite frankly.

“In the Express, there was Leo McKinstry talking about transgender people tightening their ‘demented grip on our society,’ ‘the growing pattern of transgender madness’ and ‘making a mockery of biological science.'”

Doughty added: “I have been very disappointed, particularly with the Telegraph and The Times, to see both publications jumping on the anti-trans bandwagon. There have been an increasing number of stories focusing on the issues around the trans community in The Times that seem to have been given particular prominence in recent months.

“The Times opinion piece in November 2017 had the headline, ‘Children sacrificed to appease trans lobby.’ You will understand why that is a particular concern, given the previous use of ‘gay lobby,’ ‘Jewish lobby’ and all of those sorts of things.

“[The Telegraph is] carrying pieces… Alison Pearson in October: ‘Will our spineless politicians’ love affair with LGBT ever end?’ Norman Tebbit, 17 October: ‘We need to investigate the causes of this sudden transgender explosion,’ and a piece, ‘Trans survey for 10-year-olds.'”

Addressing the editors Doughty added: “Nearly half of all transgender schoolchildren have attempted suicide. 41 percent of all transgender people have suffered hate crime just in the last year.

“When we see the suicide and hate crime figures, do you accept any responsibility whatsoever for generating the type of atmosphere that transgender people face in this country?”

Ian Brunskill, Assistant Editor of The Times, told the MP the newspaper’s continued coverage of trans issues was reflective of the “very fierce debate” on the subject, referencing disputes “within your own party” after Labour faced protests from anti-transgender activists.

Of the use of the headline ‘Children sacrificed to trans lobby,’ Brunskill added: “I can’t remember what sort of piece that was on, but I agree, the language there strikes me as slightly emotive.

“It was an opinion piece and that was the opinion being expressed, then the headline should quite reasonably express the opinion that the article is expressing.

“It is appearing on an opinion column. It is a fair reflection of a column that we have carried. We are quite happy to carry the column.”

Pushed by Doughty on whether the term “trans lobby” was acceptable, he said: “I don’t have any objection to that. There is a lobby, or rather there are several transgender lobbies.”

Asked if he would use the term ‘gay lobby’ or ‘Jewish lobby’, Brunskill replied: “If there were one.”

Brunskill proceeded to claim that “the newspaper has no line” on transgender issues and attributed most of the concerns to Times writer Janice Turner, who he asserted “is the only columnist who is doing this.”

He added: “The debate within the trans community has shifted quite dramatically and quite violently, in some ways, as you know. It has become about who is a member of it, essentially. It has become about self-definition. This is the toxic issue here. Janice has taken quite a firm view on that.”

Brunskill continued: “There is no sense that we are poking people with sticks on this. There is a bigger picture.

“We have a columnist who has a particular view on this issue, and the headlines on her column reflected the strength of feeling that there is around this issue in the kind of area that she is operating in. In no sense does that reflect the bigger picture of The Times’s take on this.”

Speaking about a piece that describes trans people as “demented,” Express editor Gary Jones said: “It is a comment piece. I suppose he is entitled to give his opinion within that. I would argue that newspapers have come a long way in the last 10, 20, 30 years on transgender.”

He added that “newspapers and editors, like myself, are very much aware that you need to get every single word right.”

Ian MacGregor of the Telegraph also denied his newspaper was waging a campaign against transgender rights.

He said: “We take the coverage of these issues so seriously. That is why, as members of IPSO and abiding by the code of conduct, we are very careful about the wording we use.

“We treat these issues with great sensitivity. One other piece of guidance that we watch very carefully is from IPSO to all its members on researching and reporting stories involving transgender individuals, which asks, and guides every reporter on a step-by-step approach, about whether mention of their sexuality is relevant, whether it is suitable to use certain ‘dead names’ and that kind of thing.”

He added: “Clearly, these are very sensitive issues and very important issues.

“It is important that our columnists and writers are entitled to their opinion in this world. Sometimes that can be upsetting. I would not be encouraging anyone to upset anyone, but the issues are quite sensitive. I think we reserve the right to upset if we have to, because these issues are important to discuss.”

Paul Clarkson, Managing Editor of The Sun, also hit back at allegations his newspaper had contributed to anti-trans coverage, saying: “I would actually say that The Sun is one of the most prominent media organisations to shed a light on transgender issues.

“We have an excellent relationship with a number of transgender lobby groups that we have been engaging with over a number of years.”

The boss added that he “completely refutes” criticism of the headline “Tran and wife” to refer to a transgender person getting married, claiming that “every word, headline and image was passed by transgender groups pre-publication.”

The couple involved in the story, Hannah Winterbourne and Jake Graf, have said they were “very disappointed when [the coverage] was let down by such an offensive and garish headline and front page.”

But Clarkson insisted: “With this story, we got their full blessing beforehand. There was no issue with ‘Tran and wife’ because you have three words to tell a story. It is not a front page story just to say, ‘Man marries woman.’

“The issue that some people within the community had was with the strapline along the top that explained that there was man that used to be women, marrying a woman who used to be a man.
“If anybody actually read the piece, everyone in the transgender lobby groups who we have spoken to were gushing with praise.”

discussed here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3233421-Home-Affairs-Committee-Hate-crime-enquiry-Newspaper-editors-interviewed?

SardinesAreYum · 28/06/2018 08:50

I mean recently the sex crime stats were reported, didn't phrase that quite right.

So the press, society, government, police etc are colluding to utterly mislead on violent crime. Not deliberately - they aren't having meetings (I hope!) - but they are all nevertheless happily going along a path which has this result.

And reading the comments above in the paper - gives an excuse that violent men are looking for to beat women. Because they are "just as bad" and can "look after themselves" etc etc

happydappy2 · 28/06/2018 09:27

While we can, lets post comments on the article in the Sun-take a screen shot for evidence before they get taken down-which I imagine will be soon.

LangCleg · 28/06/2018 09:47

The real issue with this is that many people won't read / watch and this type of story then supports MRA views that women are "just as bad", violence is a "people problem" not a male problem etc etc. It obfuscates the agent, misleads people and will shift the overton window over time. Which I sometimes wonder might be deliberate - there's a lot of MRA compatible stuff with all of this.

Another vote for deliberate here. I have found that it doesn't take too much poking of an extremist transactivist to provoke MRA rhetoric. I'm coming to the view that some of the extremists might be better categorised as MRAs rather than TRAs.

TimeLady · 28/06/2018 09:52

Why didn't they just say 'four people' and keep it gender neutral? And let people deduce what they wanted from the images. There was no need for the media to be complicit to the deception.

R0wantrees · 28/06/2018 10:15

THere is a relevent comment from a thread today:

OP comments, includes reference to GIRES scope of influence:
(extract)
"And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3290772-Reality-check?

happydappy2 · 28/06/2018 10:34

Time Lady I think when it was initially reported the headline was 'women in dresses' as a hint to the fact the attackers weren't actually women. Its just scary how many people think they are actually women!