Why are trans things discussed in Feminism section not a separate topic or have I missed something?

[PearlyG8]

Slightly confused. Apologies for any unintended offence.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=42&v=2rGypxyL-h0

Back to the original question I have often wondered this as there are some really good posts in this forum on other topics and I wonder how many people are put off looking for them if they don't want to enguge in this debate for whatever reason and not everyone does. The site admin have said no to a separate section so we are where we are with everything together. I'm not sure if deviding it off would be seen as silancing people it might be also at some point the level of posting will decline maybe and you would be stuck with a section that is little used. If you look back in the section you will see other times when topics have dominated the conversation though not for this length of time

Anybody who doesn't want to engage in the debate can choose not to do so. Anyone who wants to start a thread about something else can so so. Whenever the idea of a separate topic has been raised, the consensus is against. It is very much a matter of personal opinion. Some people would prefer a separate topic for all kinds of discussions, personally I'd like MRAs to have their own board, also people who can't spell.

Snappity we do need to be using the same language don't you think? We need to know what you mean by words! You need to stop using them if you don't know what they mean. So, please stop ignoring our request for you to tell us what you mean by 'woman'.

fairplayforwomen.com/legal-rights-transgender-people-biological-women/

"Fair Play For Women has written a series of articles on the important topic of the legal rights available to transgender people and to biological women. How the rights of these two groups interact is crucial to an informed debate on GRA reform. We are also producing a series of factsheets to promote awareness. We need to know our rights if we want to defend them. This list of articles and factsheets will be regularly updated.

List of articles:

Trans rights do not exist in isolation: We must balance the rights of all – all you need to know here

The Gender Recognition Act – What does it means for women

The Equality Act – a woman’s right to single-sex spaces and services

Transgender rights: How did we get here? Part 1: Equality Law

Transgender rights: How did we get here? Part 2: Changing legal sex

The Scottish Consultation on reform of the Gender Recognition laws.

And Factsheets:

FACTSHEET: UK Equality law and the single-sex exemptions

FACTSHEET: A woman’s legal right to seek refuge in a biologically female-only space

FACTSHEET: Guide to the Scottish Consultation on GRA reform

FACTSHEET: Girlguiding’s current transgender policy is not fit for purpose – here’s why"

Oh my goddess. It's like rubbing a lamp

twitter.com/AskNic/status/1010448401748676609

Brilliant thanks

It is very sad that someone whom I think is a lawyer gets it wrong. Firstly, peerages are covered in s16 not s19 as AllyMcBeagle states

Firstly, I've already apologised for typos which includes the section mumber. I was going to use the sports section as an example but then thought that peerages would be simpler to explain. Given that I posted in the middle of the night whilst still sick with morning sickness, I think it's actually pretty damn coherent

Secondly, as I say, it's clear what the effect of s16 is. I think your interpretation is strained to say the least. But even if you disagree on s16 I'm going to state again that clearly the people drafting the legislation thought that it contained exceptions because that is what they wrote in the explanatory note.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/notes/division/4/9

I know this is a point about there being no exceptions to the legal change of sex is one that you like to make but I would stop if I were you because it really does just seem rather silly to anyone familiar with the law.

And to reiterate I don't see the relevance to this discussion anyway. The law can say a thing is something else, but it doesn't make it objectively true. Are you not familiar with the concept of a legal fiction? It's not that complicated really. Parliament can pass laws saying up is down but it doesn't change objective facts.

PS. Given that I had no idea who you are 'they' seemed appropriate. I still don't really know who you are as I have never met you. What is so objectionable about gender-neutral language? I use it for lots of people, even in situations where I actually know the people in question.

Sorry that should have been
I know this point about...

"The excerpt from the GRA that Snappity posted is legit and they are correct."

I am a woman. Please use female pronouns in future

Mumsnet new guidelines prohibit deliberate misgendering use of pronouns. eg the use of 'he' for someone who identifies as a woman.

Mumsnet guidelines have been clear that posters are not required to use the preferred pronouns and have offered suggestions to posters such as using they, initials or rephrasing.

Coersion is not civil, however politely expressed.

The attempt to provoke people into lashing out in response, thus leading to their eventual banning, is not particularly subtle either.

Ah, it's another one of those "told you so's" for mnhq, cheers snappity :)

AllyMcBeagle

I really appreciate your input and knowledge, thank you.

I remember your important contribution to this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3243189-Uncomfortable-about-unisex-toilets-at-work

I hope you're able to get some undisturbed-by-morning-sickness sleep soon.

I hope you're able to get some undisturbed-by-morning-sickness sleep soon.

Thanks. It's a lot better than it was but still bad at times (not envy). It will be worth it in the end!

Best wishes Ally. Morning sickness is a shocker.

Let's be VERY clear: there is no law that can make me believe that a man can become a woman. There is no law that can compel me to teach my daughters that "women with penises" are just like us.

Laws can be fallible.

Have you tried travel sickness wrist bands, Ally? They did wonders for me.

Thanks for all the well wishes. Unfortunately the sickness bands don't seem to make much difference to me. I'm well into the second trimester now and it's just dragging on but loads better than it was at its worst at least! And it won't last forever.

OP, to answer your question about the appropriateness of having this conversation in a feminist forum, I refer to my own experience.

I considered myself a "feminist" for most of my adult life, but can honestly say I didn't give much thought to the theory or basis behind that position. I believed in the equality of and the oppression of women, and largely considered feminism in terms of workplace equity, freedom of personal choice, supporting women globally, (including ending religious practices like FGM), etc. I don't suppose I ever sat and pondered the questions: what is a woman? WHY are women oppressed and always have been? Is there such a thing as "feeling" like a woman? What is femininity? What is the difference between sex and gender?

Last year, I started researching the issue of trans kids for clinical reasons, which led to further reading about the transgender rights movement. What I have ended up learning and discovering has changed my perspective on so much, including my own belief system about men, women, and our very sense of being.

In attempting to redefine the meaning of woman to include biological males, women face what I fear may be our greatest threat ever: complete erasure.

Our biology is at the core of this issue, and it matters. Being able to discuss the very definition of woman and WHY we face the oppression we do very much intersects with the idea that men cannot share this. Further, years and years of dedicated work to ensure that women have the protections we need, be it a domestic violence shelter or a separate sporting league, are all in jeopardy (by the inclusion of biological males). How is this not a feminist issue?

Though I'm genuinely frightened of the consequences of further erosion of women's rights, I can credit this debate for helping me to find my voice, my clarity on what it means to be a woman, my resolve in raising children that will understand the difference between gender and sex, (and work to eliminate the trappings of such), and has prompted me to deeply consider how I can help my class globally to fight patriarchal oppression. Thank you to this forum for helping this baby feminist "find her wings!"

Don't be silenced. In the words of MLK, "our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."

GeorgeFayne

I had been just about to post the same quote!

Brilliant post. Also brilliant quote. Let's go get 'em.

Great post, George.

Important current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3287763-Posters-jumping-before-theyre-pushed

Great post GeorgeFayne.

It's certainly an observable phenomenon that when women drill down to find out what all the fuss is about, they are unearth some pretty persuasive arguments about feminism in general. And misogyny in particular.

Finding out about the trans ideology is bringing more and more women to feminism.

It's yet another own goal of transactivism. By targeting mumsnet especially - they are just increasing the number of feminists.