Why are trans things discussed in Feminism section not a separate topic or have I missed something?

[PearlyG8]

Slightly confused. Apologies for any unintended offence.

Yes that's true of me.

By targeting mumsnet especially - they are just increasing the number of feminists.

Datun did you see this?

Don't you think it's surprising they didn't catch on earlier to the mumsnet massive? They had the UN, the EU, the local authorities, the media, half the unions, all the political parties and the education establishment all taken care of with plans going back decades. And then a bunch of mothers stuck a foot out from behind a door and said NO, and they just weren't prepared for it.

Though I'm genuinely frightened of the consequences of further erosion of women's rights, I can credit this debate for helping me to find my voice, my clarity on what it means to be a woman, my resolve in raising children that will understand the difference between gender and sex, (and work to eliminate the trappings of such), and has prompted me to deeply consider how I can help my class globally to fight patriarchal oppression. Thank you to this forum for helping this baby feminist "find her wings!"

Your whole post was fab, George, but this bit stands out. The silver lining in the cloud of extremist transactivism is the consciousness raising it has prompted among women.

Keep on keeping on, my friend!

Don't you think it's surprising they didn't catch on earlier to the mumsnet massive? They had the UN, the EU, the local authorities, the media, half the unions, all the political parties and the education establishment all taken care of with plans going back decades. And then a bunch of mothers stuck a foot out from behind a door and said NO, and they just weren't prepared for it.

I think the view was of MN as some kind of harmless TERF containment area to laugh at. Then some of us took it offline - I love you forever, Man Friday! - and the press started writing about us. Which prompted a very large amount of narc rage.

R0wantrees

I did see that, yes. Stunning.

I think the view was of MN as some kind of harmless TERF containment area to laugh at.

I agree with that, too. How many women say that feminism is truly your archetypal lightbulb moment? And once seen, it's never unseen.

For most women who go through this specific experience, I believe the grip of feminism just tightens. Which is quite remarkable, given how uncomfortable it can be.

So a bunch of bullying and intimidating men genuinely believing that mumsnet was harmless, because all women do is push prams and scrub floors, was no surprise.

If we win, MN feminists need their blue plaque. I don't mean me, I mean going back to Dittany and way back when. They didn't shut up.

Being in London, and seeing you in the corner, and Datun standing up - what a great moment.

I have been reading a lot of the posts and I do appreciate the many helpful replies and lots of thought provoking discussion and inspiration.

I don't really know how to address the criticism of being tired or not posting on this board with this username or not seeing lots of threads about having a separate trans board. Someone said claiming to be tired was a clue or words to that effect. If you meant it was a clue that I was insincere in starting this thread you are mistaken but I can now see why it might appear that way.

When you said, Snappity, "I am a woman. Please use female pronouns in future" I wish I had had the confidence to say something equally assertive in real life when finding sexist "banter" upsetting in a college class. Instead I felt silenced and marginalised. Fortunately the course ended today but not without a few more digs and put downs.

What makes me a woman or a feminist? And if I'm not conforming can I be either?

What makes me a woman or a feminist? And if I'm not conforming can I be either?

A woman is an adult human female.
A Feminist is a member of the political movement for the liberation of women.

You ability to be either one or both is entirely dependent on you.

I'm not expecting you to be psychic bewilderness and you write with such clarity and confidence you make it sound simple.

The world seems very confusing and dangerous these days. In years gone by I wouldn't have hesitated in identifying as a feminist, never a universally popular stance. A decade or so ago that seemed to include young women reclaiming the right to things I'd seen as oppressive at the same age and the gradual emergence of pink hegemony (if you'll pardon the expression). Despite some natural preferences and some conscious choices not stereotypically feminine I never for a moment considered that I was not a woman. Even asking the question would have seemed crackers.

I am struggling to write what I want to for fear of not being clear. The words woman, gender and sex are suddenly being used differently by different people so how can I express my sense of unease? I do feel silenced because even trying to form a sentence about my own experience is hard.

I am struggling to find a way of talking about the fact that a bunch of things that don't describe me are seen as indicators of whether someone is a woman, which I have always been. Or is female, or is feminine or? It is horrible to have language taken away. All over the world people have been told they are not to use their native tongue. It's not done to liberate them is it?

Hi PearlyG8

I understand the feeling of not being able to discribe your experiance and when working with young trans people I am often at odds with my use of what they see as outdated language though I have to explain to them that it was once the upto date language and that sometimes its ok to stick with the words that define us but that we need to be mindful that we don't project them onto others and that we can seek clarification as to how others seek to define themselves. I think that a conversation or debate undertaken in those terms should not be seen as wrong. As always with youth things are often black and white and the areas of gray have not started to seep into there lives yet so it is often hard to explain this idea to them and why interacting on places like this are importent.

My skin is crawling.

I am struggling to write what I want to for fear of not being clear. The words woman, gender and sex are suddenly being used differently by different people so how can I express my sense of unease? I do feel silenced because even trying to form a sentence about my own experience is hard.

Discrimination is often embedded into language. We have seen it in gay rights. Even once we got same sex marriages, the word marriage wasn't initially used - we got civil partnerships. That's changed and we now have property equality and marriage for all. But in some groups, it isn't resolved. In some evangelical Christian groups, for example, marriage is still seen as being "between one man and one woman" and there is a dissonance between that traditional use of the word marriage and the modern, inclusive use of the word.

The same is true in terms of trans rights. Discrimination was embedded into terms like sex and woman. The first step, comparable to civil partnerships, was trans woman and some unfortunately resist even that. Just as civil partnerships became simply marriage to remove the outdated discrimination from the language used, so too trans woman has evolved to simply woman.

Unfortunately, just as some people want to cling to the discrimination of the past and continue to deny that two men, or two women, can 'marry', some refuse to use the term woman in its non-discriminatory sense.

Inevitably, there is dissonance between how the modernists and traditionalists use language, and that includes here. The modernised uses of terms like woman, female, sex/gender etc in my opinion are not going to go away, just as the mainstream use of the marriage is never again going to return to excluding same sex marriage. If you are struggling, then if you carry on using the old exclusionary language, then there are people here who will still understand that - embrace and encourage it even. But this is something of an echo chamber. Outside here trans woman (without the space) is generally accepted and increasingly, particularly among younger people, woman is too. It is why we see women with a trans history starting to take their rightful places on all-women shortlists or as women speakers. I guess everyone has a choice between clinging to the past or embracing change.

PearlyG8. thebewilderness talks sense.

A woman is an adult human female.
A Feminist is a member of the political movement for the liberation of women.

Some people want to take those words away from us. You've got to ask yourself why.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Controlling the language of the debate is winning the debate before it has begun. It's never been about courtesy. It's always been about control.

The future is males. All males and only males. What a brilliant future you paint, Snappity, for these males, those males, and only males.

Women and girls are beginning to wonder how you intend to dispose of us.

Perhaps we will be farmed for our wombs. It will be illegal not to donate organs.

I understand the feeling of not being able to discribe your experiance and when working with young trans people I am often at odds with my use of what they see as outdated language

Makes me wonder how they get through biology GCSE.

When the future is all male, and we are never, ever to have a space without men, and are required by law to call men 'women', and this entire conversation is silenced, it won't be enough. They'll know that we know that everything is a lie, and they'll know they still aren't the reproductive class that gestates. Nothing will ever becenough because reality.

Yes, reality is the stumbling block. People can attempt to change the definition of words, but it's not going to change reality. Sex is description of our potential reproductive function. Shouting loudly isn't going to change that.

Good point Baroquehavoc

Changing the definitions of words does not change reality I am glad we have established that. Now we have all agreed on that can we talk about the social and legal definitions of words which we can and do often change to include other definitions of things that are defined not only. By one aspect of themselves but a number of things.

To use the marriage analogy it would be like saying that marriage is only one man and one woman is a fact because the Bible. Says so and there can be no other understanding of that word. And a lot of people feel that is ture for them. But other people also feel that the word and concept of marriage can also hold more than one meaning. This in not way changes the reality of the first meaning which is still and will always be true.

I don't know why you are using the marriage analogy, I don't know why you are using any analogy at all.

We can describe what is actually happening, misogyny. Male people throughout history have hated women, in no small part because of our biology. Male people like to express dominance, they like to control.

I said a while back that some commenters not coming from the GC side are clearly focusing on other commenters who they think that can bully into silence, and that's exactly what's being attempted on the OP here.