Handmaidens

[Terfulike]

I seem to be coming across these people more and more in the last week or so. Admittedly the video I describe below is 8 months old.

However, there are definitely more numerous postings/videos from young females (of the traditional type) who are trying to educate us GC Radfems about being too exclusionary, if you catch my drift, as such types as us may be physically threatening... no examples given.

My reason for posting is that one just got my goat quite big time (clip clip clopping across the bridge of reason).

This young person of the type traditionally (although admittedly not currently) referred to as female, or even young woman, (though obviously not these days - I acknowledge that these are considered by most Britons to be archaic terms - please forgive my usage mn) was describing people of the type who post on this particular site who are a bit exclusionary wink wink catch my drift with great disdain.

Anyway said person said that the word "lesbian" is basically an "uncomfortable" word with "*exclusionary connotations" and is "just wierd". Hmmmmm what did someone say about erasure?

Moreover GC Radfems are said by said vlogerette to be in positions of great power and influence these days ready to turn the heads of gullible young feminists in completely inappropriate directions.

Further, said person claims any discussions of paralegal philandering (quick crossword clue) are utterly ridiculous!

This highly commended video ends with scoffing at ideas of the f body being at all relevant to feminism.

Apologies if this has been discused before.

nauticant appreciate the reference and yes I can see many parallels - there but for the grace of goddess go I -

Stella was tortured mercilessly, "They kicked both of [her] shins to the breaking point and kept beating the same spot on [her] spine. [She] was bleeding from [her] mouth, ears, and nose and couldn’t eat for days… Three times they took the safety off a pistol and put it against [her] temple. Totally shattered, [she] lay unconscious on the floor" (Wyden, 144). Not satisfied with themselves, the Gestapo then kicked her with their boots while she lay on the floor. After being beaten and tortured and stripped of her self esteem Stella had no choice but to give up on her life and just try to save her family.

So she's psychologically hostaged into being a puppet - something she is not to blame for but gets blamed for - the perpetrators long gone and unnamed.

Interesting how the thread has gone from talking about the post and video into terminology

Collaborator is used in war to indicate someone colluding with the other side.

However unless one understands mind control, in families, society, cults etc I don't find it helpful to condemn people with labels, unless they are undoubtedly conscious collaborators.

Shaming someone who hasn't had the opportunity to free themselves and to see the undue influence at play across society is not helpful. It also is not effective in helping people escape cults and coercion.

It's a shame there aren't more consciousness raising groups as there were in the 60/70s - and I have no doubt the wholesale silencing of women across cyber space is precisely to stop that happening - part of divide and conquer and silencing of consciousness raising - and why this space is so important.

The Handmaiden Book and TV series are helpful in establishing a contemporary reference to illustrate the oppressive systems at play that some can see clearly and others are unwittingly caught up in. And then there are a few, a very few women, who are consciously abusers themselves.

Re the videos I watched - they are both unconscious collaborators IMO i. e. subjected to undue influence - the first one is the uni educated Pomo- addled person, espousing implanted word salad, and is so out of her body and in her head as to be unreal. The incongruences of the second one where she's advertising menstrual products and then labelling herself cis and men women plus wanting to fix terminology for men but slurring women instead - it all stands out red flags - so both have been psychologically interfered with and don't realise it - they are too young and naive to know better unfortunately. I hope they find their way here sometime ...

I don't intend it as an attempt at shaming, but as a label for a group who use specific behaviours.
We also need to remember that there are women who actively choose that path. They aren't all unconscious or victims.

‘Handmaiden of the patriarchy’ as a term predates the Atwood book, I believe (and certainly predates the TV show although I guess the young ‘uns can be forgiven for assuming that’s the reference).

I’m not in favour of policing other women’s language - i’m well up for debating and critiquing ideas though (especially when they are posting videos full of factual inaccuracies as if they are experts, spreading misinformation far and wide - the video I posted is pretty much TRA propaganda, made by someone who believes she is being a good ally to an oppressed minority. Argh!)

This is why we need debate, If your position is subject to being challenged, you need to ensure you have arrived at your position through critical thinking. Otherwise you can just parrot out any old science denying nonsense.

I rather like this quote from Tom Robbins,

‘Christianity is merely a system for turning priestesses into handmaidens, queens into concubines and goddesses into muses’

If we replace the word ‘Christianity’ with ‘Patriarchy’, we can then think of Feminism as the opposite process.

Feminism transformed me from muse to goddess

I just watched the video, she is so terribly naive, she is frowning sweetly at the "ridiculous " notion of autogynaphila.

No doubt the ivory tower she lives in is funded by her gender critical parents.

None of the blue haired woke young feminists seem to have any notion of the strongly sexual motivation of many men fot identifying as women, do they, Picasso?

Picasso and Fermats, have either of you read The Righteous Mind by Johnathon Haidt? If not I would recommend it. Haidt has carried out various experiments which look at the differences in the way progressives think, and the way conservatives think. It's fascinating and along the lines of the conversation you were having with each other regarding po-mo thinking.

I imagine when you are attempting to suppress any gut reactions to choking and anal whilst identifying as queer, then you are in fact not waving, you are drowning.

I watched the video with the turquoise-haired woman explaining trans exclusionary radical feminism. I was pleased to see two things: first, she knows something about the history of feminism, and second, she's developing her views on the basis of her lived experience.

This suggests two further things to me: she currently has trans friends that she cares about, so she has empathy for people, and also she is motivated to position herself publicly as a feminist.

She reminds me very much of other young women I've known who are idealistic but who keep engaging with complex questions. I fully expect that further life experience will lead to more nuance in her approach. Five or ten years from now I think she may have quite different things to say - especially if she is a lesbian gay woman, as she hints she might be. (That was the part of the video where she was noticeably at odds with herself and much less confident, so it seemed important.)

I'm aware that I sound monstrously condescending so I'll try to stop. But I definitely got the impression that her thoughts about sex and gender are still developing.

Women do not "collude" with the patriarchy; women are subjugated by the patriarchy. If a woman goes against it that is commendable, but when she doesn't that is not mean she is traiterous.

I find this language difficult to take seriously.

There are women who happily go along with the continued promotion of sexism despite their having no economic need to do so for example Miley Cyrus, Nicki Minaj, the women in the American Football lingerie league, the happy hooker brigade.

They deserve criticism without the infantilising notion they are victims of patriarchy or the self-rightreous calls of "handmaiden"

They have

Yes yes to Magdalen Berns to making a response video to this!

Ironically, it’s not a word I use. But I object very strongly to being told that I have to agree with everything other women say and do

I object to that as well. I also object to being co-opted in the group of "we women all..." / "no women ever...." etc.

All of the posts justifying the use of the word "handmaiden" as being a useful tool have been used to justify the 4 letter word beginning with T.

The pro- handmaiden lobbyists threw hissy fits at being called that word.

I think the pro-handmaiden posters primarily objected to being told T* was not a slur. And a lot of them said they didn't want the term banned anyway.

I think most people defending the word here are quite upfront about it not being a neutral word and in fact openly using it as a pejorative and a criticism.

As opposed to the wide-eyed innocence of saying 'When I say T*, I'm using a neutral term and it has nothing to do with anyone dying in a fire or being lynched, honest'.

I've seen criticism of those who fit the handmaiden role, but I've yet to see someone requiring them to be taken out and shot as quislings, which would probably seem to be a natural consequence if the motivations behind the two terms were the same.

And to be clear, I would unreservedly condemn anyone advocating violence against those with whom they have a disagreement.

Has anyone ever seen the invocation:

Handmaidens die in a fire

Anyone?

I think that is rather a naive correlation, Lass. Not like you at all.

Everyone's allowed to take things a bit easy on a sunny Friday afternoon!

I think that is rather a naive correlation, Lass. Not like you at all

I find both terms objectionable. I think neither add anything to the debate.

Both are used as trump cards by people who think they are intellectually or morally superior to the other party. Both are intended to silence an alternative view.

I think there is a strong correlation

I do think labeling of all kinds has got us where we are, and I don't just mean here.

Avoiding labels does force a more nuanced consideration of points of view.

I don't mean facts like sex, obviously.

Ironically, it’s not a word I use. But I object very strongly to being told that I have to agree with everything other women say and do. There are plenty of women who do well out of the patriarchy. Many of them don’t realize it. But there are those who do, and use their position to make life worse for other women. And those are the ones, the Ann Coulters, the Katie Hopkins, the Melanie Phillips who need calling out.
Nor me. I think of them as collaborators, or collabos for short.

Now, about this here video...

herfemaleness thanks for the book recc - about half way through Ch 1 and v interesting.

In return: have you come across The Authoritarians by Robert Altemeyer (another psychologist). Fascinating read as to what makes some people so drawn to following authoritarian leaders.

Just thought I'd point out that the user who made the first comment on this post, objecting to the term Handmaiden, is a one-day old account that has made 4 comments - all on this thread, and all about how horrible women are to other women.

I could make up it's a classic divide and conquers tactic -or a strange co-incidence - now about that video...

Seems a shame that this thread has just turned into a 'what people shouldn't say' thread

I do like listening and learning here

For what its worth ive never used handmaiden and I can't see how i ever will...im just gonna stick with 'stupid fucking twunt' as it works for me

This young woman says she was brought into sex work by her momentum partner and is now HIV positive.

But prostitution is empowering! vomit I just peak manned for the second time today.

I am not in the least bit surprised that pimps have joined Momentum. Lisa Muggeridge was right when she said that rightist men and leftist men will argue all day about the right place to position the boot on women's necks.

I saw a thing on Twitter from a women's march in Canada-can't remember where-basically saying you weren't welcome if you didn't sign up to "Trans women are women" and "Sex Work is Work"