How many men in Saudi Arabia wish to be women?

[RedFin]

I have NC but not for this post, I NC every so often and just happen to have done so earlier today.

It just crossed my mind to wonder how many men in more repressive countries (repressive of females that is) harbour the same desire to be female as those in Westernised countries?

I wonder if being a female seems as appealing when it means not showing your face in public, being a man's possession/responsibility, having no job, not being allowed to talk to other men, not being allowed to drive etc.

I do not know very much about trans issues (bedsides what I read on MN and then research as a result) , nor do I know very much about Saudi Arabia, so I am happy to be enlightened if I'm mistaken anywhere.

I'm not trying to be goady either, I'm just wondering about how men want to be women in a more global context

"They are expected to return to being girls when it suits the family. "

That's a different question. The question at hand is what are they if growing up with male privilege means you aren't female?

"I apologise if I'm being obtuse because I'm a gender Luddite here but do women not have vaginas? Is that not their primary defining characteristic?"

Some women are born with mullerian agenesis and have no vagina. We still classify them as women though, so having a vagina is not a requisite for being female. Unless you feel that women with mullerian agenesis are not women?

"I'm genuinely confused as to how how a person born with a penis is the same a person born with a vagina?"

They aren't - they have different shaped genitals.

"All females (other than those who have some form of disorder leading to the absence of one or more of these) have a womb, ovaries, fallopian tubes, a cervix, a vagina, and breasts."

I see, so females are defined by a set of physical characteristics, except the ones who are women despite not having the physical characteristics by which women are defined, unless they are trans, in which case they are not women because they lack the phsyical characteristics that you don't need in order to be defined as a woman.

That's not a very logical argument.

"I know a characteristic shared by all women and only women! - NO PENIS."

Are you saying that men with penile agenesis are women?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_agenesis_and_testicular_agenesis

You may find they don't agree.

"Oh come on you are plucking at straws here, XXY and XXX and XYY are very rare genetic abnormalities."

Trans people also have genetic anomalies:

www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/4592/presentation/578abstract

"They aren't - they have different shaped genitals."

It would be super useful in all sorts of situations if we had a word for each of the two main groups* of genital owner.
"Penis people" and "vagina people" is a bit clunky. Something short, one or two syllables would be ideal.

*that the vast, vast majority of human beings fit into.

so females are defined by a set of physical characteristics

No this is you reducing the argument.

All females have x is not logically then deriving the statement all females are defined by x

The class of beings who are female are of the class who bear live young and produce ova.
This does not mean that individually a female is defined by the presence of a uterus, or by fertility, or by childbirth.

The logical slip there is yours. Class vs individual

wakame

Once again, I will ask you to explain the link you just plopped down.

Please explain what you think that link shows. Because it doesn’t show what you are arguing, which is that you think there’s a genetic ‘anomaly’ that makes you transgender

" They're forced to do it by either economic necessity or cultural expectation: it can in no way compare to a man choosing to live as a woman in the UK."

Regardless of the reason they grow up with male privilege, they do grow up with male privilege, and if growing up with male privilege prevents you from being female, then they are not female.

"*that the vast, vast majority of human beings fit into."

One of the exceptions to that vast majority being trans people.

Please explain what you think that paper shows.

It does not show transgender people have ‘genetic anomalies’

"The class of beings who are female are of the class who bear live young and produce ova."

Women with mullerian agenesis are not part of the class who bear live young and produce ova.

Variants that appeared in the ExAC database at a frequency of less than 0.01% and that were predicted to be functional, particularly in pathways of sex steroid metabolism, were chosen as candidates.

Do you, for example, see any tiny hint of a problem with this statement in the abstract?

Of course, we would also include that tiny majority of people who should have a vagina but don't due to abnormal fetal development etc in the "vagina haver" word. Vagina-havers who have their vaginas removed due to traumatic, serious illness would also still be covered by whatever word we have for vagina haver. Obviously.

We should also recognise that these "vagina people" are different to people born with XY chromosones and a penis who want a vagina. Only the deeply disingenuous and cynical would try to compare them.

It's totally disingenuous to conflate oppressed girls' experiences ( and I'm talking about bacha posh) in Afghanistan with the gender debate here.

Are human beings bipedal mammals with two eyes?

Yes?
No?

If no, why not?
If yes, are those born with eye agenesis not human?

Trans people also have genetic anomalies:

Your study only includes 30 people and has no control group, therefore it tells us nothing.

Regardless of the reason they grow up with male privilege, they do grow up with male privilege, and if growing up with male privilege prevents you from being female, then they are not female.

Male privilege is such a nebulous concept. Its presence or absence has nothing to do with whether someone is biologically male or female. Presence of uterus, breasts, vagina, and absence of a penis means someone is female. Presence of testes, penis etc means someone is male. On a biological level. It says nothing about how they perceive themselves, their personality, their privilege, their status or anything else. It is simply a biological fact, not a cultural statement about who a person is or anything like that. The majority of trans people accept that- otherwise you wouldn't be trans if your biological body didn't match your gender identity.

Do you mean women with Mayer–Rokitansky–Küster–Hauser syndrome (MRKH)?

What On Earth makes you daycthey ate not part of that class? They are women. You’re misunderstanding the definition of class. of the class that...

The status of an individual women’s reproductive system, by developmental error or later surgery, is INDIVIDUAL. Not class.

Women with MRKH are women.

"One of the exceptions to that vast majority being trans people."

Wakame, the vast majority of trans people are still born with either a penis or a vagina. Whether or not you think that this has any impact on them being a man or a woman, they still fit into one of the groups I was talking about.

I also want to point out AGAIN that the intersex community are not some kind of ‘gotcha’ device in the transgender argument. They have their own medical issues they are often having to fight for and they do NOT want to be co opted into this debate.

Intersex is not transgender. It’s really distasteful to use the intersex community like this.

A bike without wheels is still a bike.

A bike without a seat is still a bike.

A bike without wheels, a seat, brakes, pedals - is that still a bike? Or has it suddenly turned into a couch?

Words are so confusing.

Do women have penile agenesis? No, because no women have penises. Only men can have penile agenesis - because men have penises.

Regardless of the reason they grow up with male privilege, they do grow up with male privilege, and if growing up with male privilege prevents you from being female, then they are not female

The whole male privilege thing is a red herring. Woman are treated differently in different cultures and during different historic periods throughout the world. Females also play a different role in different types of mammals. Hyenas will kill off most male pups and only keep a few for breeding, they are second class to the females. This doesn't make the female hyena a man.

Cultural differences do not change someone's sex, female is biology, its your body its not how your were raised or how you feel.

I think people only mention female persecution and socialisation to illustrate that most men have no idea what it's really like to be a woman.

So why are you campaigning for cross dressers Wakame? Do you support Eddie Izzard as a female politician?