Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

How many men in Saudi Arabia wish to be women?

175 replies

RedFin · 19/06/2018 15:25

I have NC but not for this post, I NC every so often and just happen to have done so earlier today.

It just crossed my mind to wonder how many men in more repressive countries (repressive of females that is) harbour the same desire to be female as those in Westernised countries?

I wonder if being a female seems as appealing when it means not showing your face in public, being a man's possession/responsibility, having no job, not being allowed to talk to other men, not being allowed to drive etc.

I do not know very much about trans issues (bedsides what I read on MN and then research as a result) , nor do I know very much about Saudi Arabia, so I am happy to be enlightened if I'm mistaken anywhere.

I'm not trying to be goady either, I'm just wondering about how men want to be women in a more global context

OP posts:
Wakame · 19/06/2018 20:29

"Wakame, are you saying that trans people do not have XX or XY chromosomes?"

The answer to that question already exists in the thread. Read it through again.

PeakPants · 19/06/2018 20:30

Because we have female identities. Do you have a list of characteristics that all females and only females have? No exceptions now.

No, Wakame but doesn't that rather undermine the argument that there is a female identity (if not all females have it)?

Anyway, I am very happy for trans people to live the lives they want to live and I condemn any discrimination against them. I am happy to use preferred pronouns where I am made aware of them. I do not wish trans people to suffer stigma. The one exception is that I think that in some circumstances, having a male sexed body does make a difference. I am not saying that biology is the be all and end all- identity is very complex. But surely as a transwoman, you do not deny that your body is male-sexed in that if you were unconscious and someone were asked to identify your sex, they would say male? If that were not the case, you would not be a transwoman. For the most part, that doesn't matter and society can and should be inclusive. However, in some limited circumstances, it does, and biological sex had to be the determinant.

I believe that compromise between the groups is possible and essential, because if both groups have an all or nothing approach, one of them is going to be very disappointed.

alexpolistigers · 19/06/2018 20:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Wakame · 19/06/2018 20:31

"You have to believe in gender to believe in gender identity Wakame."

Here's a tip - gender roles and gender identity are not the same thing. Try to find out why. The information is all out there - you just need to look for it with an open mind.

UpstartCrow · 19/06/2018 20:31

They are expected to return to being girls when it suits the family. Its not a choice they make. Conditions for women in Afghanistan and the boys forced into sexual slavery are particularly grim. Don't use them to score
points.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/06/2018 20:35

Ha ha - thought you might struggle a little there.

I am not struggling at all because it's really a simple concept to grasp.

If you have XY chromosomes and a penis then you're male.
If you have XX chromosomes and a vagina then you're female.

The only person who appears to be struggling here is you as evidenced by these two statements:

I'm not going to do your research for you, but at least you can start your research safe in the knowledge that gender identity is an accepted fact amongst doctors and scientists across the world. You challenge will be to understand why they think that.

And this one

Do you have a list of characteristics that all females and only females have?

BettyDuMonde · 19/06/2018 20:40

I don’t need to Wakame. I read Gender Trouble 15 years ago.
I don’t believe in gender identity.

I do, however, believe I’m pretty good at spotting XY people - you see, It’s necessary for XX and XY to recognise each other in order to ensure the continuation of the species.

gingergenius · 19/06/2018 20:40

I apologise if I'm being obtuse because I'm a gender Luddite here but do women not have vaginas? Is that not their primary defining characteristic? I'm genuinely confused as to how how a person born with a penis is the same a person born with a vagina?

PeakPants · 19/06/2018 20:41

Do you have a list of characteristics that all females and only females have?

Well, um, yeah. All females (other than those who have some form of disorder leading to the absence of one or more of these) have a womb, ovaries, fallopian tubes, a cervix, a vagina, and breasts. Only females have these (other than a very small number of intersex people who may have some of these characteristics too).

To say 'well some women don't have a womb' makes no sense. Some people are born without legs or without certain vital organs. That doesn't stop anyone from saying they are human and from saying that humans have two arms, two legs, two lungs, a liver etc. Where a womb is surgically removed, the argument is even more ridiculous. I could cut off a finger today and that doesn't stop me from being human and from humans having 10 fingers. Nor would those facts be untrue if I was born with 9 or 11 fingers.

TeaAddict235 · 19/06/2018 20:56

Eloquently said @PeakPants, I was going to state the female organs as well but you beat me to it. I've been reading through these threads for a short while now, and it quickly descends into women being told to defend their female biology. It's ours! We don't need to "explain" ourselves, we have wombs and menstruate. I challenge the male of the (animal or plant) species to tell me and the world that they do that. It is truly a sad state of affairs.

TeaAddict235 · 19/06/2018 20:59

The 'animal' bit was a joke btw

TeaAddict235 · 19/06/2018 21:00

'Plant' ha! Football is on

SlothSlothSloth · 19/06/2018 21:03

Do you have a list of characteristics that all females and only females have?

Honestly this sort of illogical nonsense really winds me up, and I’m someone who does support your right to be whoever you want/need to.

Do you have a full list of characteristics that tables, and only tables have?

Do you have a full list of characteristics that cats, and only cats, have?

The answer is no because variation exists within every category of thing.

There are always certain exceptions to every rule, but to fixate on the exceptions instead of the rule makes language meaningless.

You’re eroding the usefulness of language. Stop it.

SlothSlothSloth · 19/06/2018 21:05

Agree with everything peakpants has been saying!

AornisHades · 19/06/2018 21:15

Do all women have the capacity to become menopausal?

Original poster
RedFin · 19/06/2018 21:23

I didn't mean to be distasteful, I apologize. TuTru and Who have clarified what I was wondering a bit more.

A better question is to examine this issue across different socio-economic groups

OP posts:
Serfisafleur · 19/06/2018 21:27

You may as well ask
Do you have a list of characteristics that all people with a female identity have and only people with a female identity have?

SlothSlothSloth · 19/06/2018 21:28

Do all women have the capacity to become menopausal?

Most, but not all. Some perhaps have conditions which mean they never had periods. But that doesn’t affect the definition of the word woman! I hate all this convoluted trickery that deliberately renders simple concepts, such as “woman”, headachingly opaque.

(Sorry, realise you’re probably on the same side as me with this...)

AngryAttackKittens · 19/06/2018 21:30

Was it Miranda Yardley who made the comment about a certain strain of trans activism cutting through goodwill like a buzzsaw? That's being demonstrated quite nicely here.

AornisHades · 19/06/2018 21:38

I think so sloth :) It's been something I've wondered for a while. I didn't know of anyone who hasn't or doesn't expect to so I wondered if it was a universal experience.

WhoWants2Know · 19/06/2018 21:45

I can understand that focusing exclusively on areas where homosexuality and gender nonconformity are punishable by ostracism and death is disturbing and distressing.

But equally I feel that we need to understand more about how Gender dysphoria and desire to transition (in both biological sexes) are experienced across cultures and socioeconomic backgrounds.

fruitcider · 19/06/2018 21:50

Humans cannot change sex."

I didn't have to - I was already female :-)

I'm pretty sure your biology disputes that, otherwise you wouldn't need to "transition".

serialtester · 19/06/2018 21:54

If someone is born with a penis they can not ever be defined as a "woman" no matter how much they feel they identify with their perception of what a woman is.

Realise I'm preaching to the choir here.

OP - interesting question!

Kettlepotblackagain · 19/06/2018 21:58

So are we all trans then?

If biology is irrelevant, how do you know if your body and gender don't connect?

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 19/06/2018 22:13

Wakame, the OP was asking if there's anywhere where women are repressed and men still want to transition: the example I gave from Afghanistan shows that in one of the worst places in the world to be a woman it is the other way round and girls are not choosing to be boys, they have no choice. They're forced to do it by either economic necessity or cultural expectation: it can in no way compare to a man choosing to live as a woman in the UK.