Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

“My partner needed therapy after being repeatedly mis-gendered on Mumsnet.”

I’m sorry to hear your partner was not well GibbertyFlibbert. Can I ask why that affected your partner so much?

What does 'put your own experience over theirs' mean?
My experience of other human beings tells me that:
1. Sometimes people are mistaken in their beliefs about themselves
2. Sometimes they are not speaking in good faith.

Does your experience of humanity not tell you the same?

Yes, but how is somebody supposed to be more mistaken about their gender than you?

You will never be able to experience anybody else's gender. You will never be in their psychological state of mind. If you are cisgender, you will never experience what it is to be genderfluid, or trans, or two-spirit.

If a person says they are trans, there really is hardly any circumstances in which you can somehow know they are not. So to then refuse to accept their gender identity, you are putting your experience of gender over their understanding of their gender - which will always be greater than yours. They are saying they are a girl, you are using your limited experience of "my gender is associated with my sex, as is many other people's" and insisting that everybody's experience of a hugely complex social construct is the same. To the point where you actively misgender them.

"I’m sorry to hear your partner was not well GibbertyFlibbert. Can I ask why that affected your partner so much?"

She as a GRC and despite telling people here and pointing out that her sex and gender are legally female, some posters carried on calling her male and he. It was done in the full knowledge of the hurt it was causing

If people at work were to call me a bloke, so what? I mean, I'm short even for a woman and have massive boobs and obviously female facial features, so it would be a bit baffling, for others as much as for me, but ultimately what does it matter? I know what sex I am

Exactly - and, why exactly should I care which sex the person checking me in at the hotel thinks I look like? What possible bearing does it have on the actions we're both trying to perform.

I think it's another case of baffling us with bullshit - grammatical gender is based on the sex of the person, it's distinct from gender as a societal concept (god I wish they'd picked a new word instead of re-using one!)

It's the same switcheroo they do by getting you to say that woman is a gender, not a sex, therefore everything that was actually designed for women (thinking female) should actually be for them as women (thinking societal gender)

You will never be able to experience anybody else's gender. You will never be in their psychological state of mind. If you are cisgender, you will never experience what it is to be genderfluid, or trans, or two-spirit.

There is no such thing as gender chuck.
There are no girls toys and boys toys - there are just toys.
There are no such jobs as girls jobs and boys jobs - there are just jobs.
There is no such things as CIS in terms of gender, that is made up to 'other' women who are getting mightily fucked off that Trans women are trying to pretend that trans is a subset of women, like Black women, or Scottish women.
I have never met a man who conforms 100% to 'gender stereotypes' and never met a woman who conforms 100% to 'gender stereotypes'. If you are going down the road of 'gender' then everyone is 'non-binary'.

I mean come on, do some fucking homework.

Thanks GibbertyFlibbert. I hope the therapy helped your partner.

Personally I am very happy to call someone she if that's what they want, or he or they or it. It's no skin off my nose.
I'm fine with calling them by their chosen name too. If a woman wants to be called Arthur, or a man wants to be called Cecilia, I will do that too.
What I can't do though is call a man a woman or vice versa, because it would be a lie.

Exactly - and, why exactly should I care which sex the person checking me in at the hotel thinks I look like? What possible bearing does it have on the actions we're both trying to perform.

This is implausibly stupid. Of course it would affect a trans person differently to a cis person! For hugely obvious reasons.

I think it's another case of baffling us with bullshit - grammatical gender is based on the sex of the person, it's distinct from gender as a societal concept (god I wish they'd picked a new word instead of re-using one!)
Pffft. There is nothing inherent about gendered pronouns corresponding with a sex. "Grammatical gender" is part of the social construct rather than the biological fact, and as such falls under how they operate and identify within it, not their chromosomes.

I don't think people understand. Her GP referred her to our local hospital because of bleeding. We got there and the consultant refused to see her and said she should instead see a psychiatrist about her bleeding. That's the reality of being trans. It can be that the misgendering is a trigger but it also piles on top of years of facing discrimination.

Misgendering someone deliberately is saying "I have power over you. I can hurt you. I choose to do so." It's a truly wicked thing to do, especially to a woman because, as we all know, women are more vulnerable than men.

I think a lot of women, gender critical women particularly, do not have a gender identity. It isn't universal yet is treated as greater and more relevant than sex.

Do you agree with a PP that it might lead to mental health problems or suicide?

Not generally just a one off misgendering. But yes over a period of time it can lead to low self esteem and depression. Some people can lose hope if they can't be seen as the sex they feel they are because of the reality of what that means. I don't deny that for a few individuals there may be co-morbid personality/ narcissistic issues.

I have heard anecdotally that it can contribute to suicide: trans people who go through the whole process including genital surgery, and then expect to walk out into the world and be accepted as a woman, and then find that isn't necessarily the case. That's more than just one misgendering though. And it may even be accidental misgendering - that's no-ones fault of course.

Thanks for asking this question and listening btw I think it's an interesting discussion.

I have never met a man who conforms 100% to 'gender stereotypes' and never met a woman who conforms 100% to 'gender stereotypes'. If you are going down the road of 'gender' then everyone is 'non-binary'.

So, we are in agreement then?
That gender does not affect personality, hobbies or preference in colour?

In which case, what's your issue?

There is no such things as CIS in terms of gender, that is made up to 'other' women who are getting mightily fucked off that Trans women are trying to pretend that trans is a subset of women, like Black women, or Scottish women.

I've genuinely never understood what's the point of being angry about the term "cis."

You are a cis woman. So, you are not a trans woman. And vice versa. It's just a helpful way of distinguishing as to who you're referring to in discussions like this.

Whenever my husband (a male human being with XY chromosomes for the avoidance of doubt) speaks to a call centre or take away restaurant they always reply with “madam”

He just shrugs.

That what grown up people do. He knows that his voice is often mistaken for a women’s on the phone (I don’t see it myself). And so he just shrugs.

*I don't think people understand. Her GP referred her to our local hospital because of bleeding. We got there and the consultant refused to see her and said she should instead see a psychiatrist about her bleeding. That's the reality of being trans. It can be that the misgendering is a trigger but it also piles on top of years of facing discrimination.

If someone was bleeding, then a hospital would see them. Why would they refer someone who was bleeding to a psychiatrist? Where were they bleeding from?

To those on the thread that believe in gender as an actual thing that is real and exists innately in a person, can you explain what you understand gender to mean?

And why you use sex based terms like male, female, man, woman, if it is different from sex?

What is gender?
Is it individual?
Or a group thing with shared characteristics?
Is it feelings, beliefs, etc?

My position is that I have a sex, but not a gender, and I also refute that anyone 'has a gender'. (If it doesn't exist nobody has one!)

I am open to being convinced, but in several years of asking this question I only ever hear circularity and evasion.

If gender is real it ought to be articulated by those who believe in it.

I know a senior man (again XY for the avoidance of doubt) of Italian heritage who has a name that is male is Italy and female in the UK.

He is often mistaken as woman before people see him in real life.

He just shrugs. Because that is what grown up people do.

You are a cis woman. So, you are not a trans woman.

No. I am a woman.

@rosesandflowers the issue is that many women don't have a gender identity and don't identify with the stereotypes associated with femininity. That's the issue with cis, plus the use of it to dismiss, diminish and other women.

Misgendering can be a big deal to me...
I "pass" but am also quite open that I'm a transwoman, so those who were initially happy to use female pronouns (but then switch to male ones) are generally trying to make a point.
More often than not, that "point" will escalate into something nasty. That may be a series of rude comments that lead me to cut that person out of my life.
That has also developed into actual violence (and I don't mean hurting my feelings when I say that, I mean deliberately scolding me, attacking me physically) probably about 4/10. I don't think I've ever met anybody who has deadnamed and misgendered me and still retained any other respect for me. More often it's the catalyst of physical or verbal abuse.

That's not to say that I think the act of misgendering is literal violence in itself; but I exercise extreme caution around anybody that misgenders or deadnames me.

"someone was bleeding, then a hospital would see them. Why would they refer someone who was bleeding to a psychiatrist? Where were they bleeding from?"

For trans people it does not always work like that. For a time stories were collected on Twitter against #transdocfail

Trying to force people to lie is abusive.

why exactly should I care which sex the person checking me in at the hotel thinks I look like?

This is implausibly stupid. Of course it would affect a trans person differently to a cis person! For hugely obvious reasons.

Yes, and to get to a mentally healthy state, they need to work on that - it's not healthy to be so affected by a random person, performing a task completely unrelated to sex.

Pffft. There is nothing inherent about gendered pronouns corresponding with a sex. "Grammatical gender" is part of the social construct rather than the biological fact

Yes, exactly - but words - which are all socially constructed - mean things, that's the social convention we have, that when we say chair, we mean that thing with legs and a back which we sit on. When we say 'the feminine grammatical gender' in reference to an animal or a human we are referring to someone/something that is female.

If the feminine grammatical gender corresponds instead with the feminine social gender then a) people have been misgendering me all my life, and b) we're going to need to be able to define the feminine social gender, and c) there's going to be a lot more judgement around as people try to guess whether to use he or she based on what shoes someone's wearing!

If words don't mean things, then we have no point of reference to work on.

For trans people it does not always work like that.

Where was your partner bleeding from that the hospital referred them to a psychiatrist?