Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

I'm a tall, slim woman with slightly broad shoulders that I used to be quite self-conscious about. I still remember one day about 10 years ago I stepped back to let a builder pass as he was carrying something heavy. Even though I was partly obscured by fencing so he couldn't see me properly, it did quite upset me when he said "thanks mate". However, I was upset with myself and felt down about my own body. I would never have dreamed about being angry with him. Perhaps that's down to female socialisation?

P.s. happy to report I am fine with my shoulders now

I do think it's an important question. I was really interested in the recent threads about being Ms or Mrs or Miss - some people felt strongly about it and seemed to consider their social title part of their identity.

I know that some teachers feel it's quite important to retain a professional form of address that seems pretty old-fashioned in most other contexts.

The rage reaction seems unique to the trans debate though. Or would a teacher become enraged if a parent refused to use her title and called her by her first name publicly, deliberately and consistently? I'm not a teacher but I'm pretty sure it would annoy me. Or maybe it's not a useful comparison?

I'm afraid that I will use the pronouns that match a person's apparent sex, if they pass extremely well then I probably wouldn't be able to tell; although I expect that would generally be when encountering TIFs who'd already been taking hormones, etc.
It is an ideology/religion that I don't believe in and I'm entitled to hold that view.

I don't force my religion on other people so I don't expect them to force theirs onto me, which they would be doing if they insisted that I lie and collude with them in this belief that humans can change sex.

Non-deliberate misgendering is surely not something that anyone could reasonably be upset with the other person about? We all have to make a best guess when addressing a stranger, based on how we perceive them.

Deliberate and persistent misgendering of a colleague or an acquaintance seems different to me. I would use their name/they to avoid this, if I were in that situation. I wouldn't want to actively upset them, but equally I wouldn't want to be compelled to use language in a way that doesn't feel truthful to me.

It is generally about decency. If you refuse to accept people's gender identity, then you're usually transphobic, which means you contribute to large-scale transphobia such as medical denial or trans poverty.

Misgendering can be a contributor to suicide in the sense that in many trans people's minds, it becomes aligned with or triggers symptoms of body dysphoria, which can cause major mental health issues. If the trans person has traumatic memories e.g. transphobic abuse from a family member, or conversion therapy, in which they would be misgendered, this can also cause problems.

It's also politeness. To say you know someone's gender better than they do is to put your own experience of gender over theirs, and possibly their comfort. Essentially, you're arrogant and close-minded, which would piss someone off anyway, but as misgendering is quite personal and pretty much constant for trans people I think it can very easily hit a nerve.

Most trans people don't care about accidental misgendering. This still could be very impactful if it's to do with dysphoria/trauma, but as a general rule if you're getting used to someone's pronouns and make a mistake, they won't care. Purposefully and it's a different story.

“I don't think mentally healthy people, who are happy in their own skins, give a toss about random people 'misgendering' them.

Most transgender people are not mentally healthy. They are dealing with their psychological issues by constructing a narrative that they are 'really' the opposite sex. Their whole sense of who they are is thus based on a lie, and being 'misgendered' exposes that lie and is an attack on their whole self identity. ”

This is fascinating terfinthevoid and seems like a really convincing argument about what’s really going on. I would really like to see if there’s an argument against this theory of why it might be important to trans people that their identity is affirmed?

It's not for most of us.
When I met DH he had long hair and would often get people referring to him as a lady by various people - usually small children, old ladies, or even mums talking to their small children ("give the money to the lady" type comments).
I've had short hair on and off, but it's maybe happened once twice, I don't recall.
We certainly never thought of it as literal violence.

If you refuse to accept people's gender identity, then you're usually transphobic, which means you contribute to large-scale transphobia such as medical denial or trans poverty.

No it doesn't. Stop being so melodramatic. It means that you do not believe that humans can change sex. Which they can't. Men need to realise that women will always see them as men, and men will always see them as men. If it is triggering, then they need to see a medical professional.

On the flip side, if we don't see that mis-gendering someone should be that much of a deal for the person in question, is it really that much of a big deal to call people by the pronoun they would prefer? It doesn't necessarily mean you believe that they ARE that sex, it's just not treating it as a significant issue.
I get called Mrs husband's surname frequently, Mrs my surname and all sorts, it doesn't bother me. My husband gets called Mr my surname, it doesn't bother him. If we can stop placing so much emphasis on pronouns and the values attached to them, perhaps we'll all be better off.

How others see us is a huge part of the affirmation of who we are.

I'm sorry but if you live your life believing this I can't imagine you will ever be happy, as someone else once said "What you think of me is none of my business."

No one is obliged to agree with your idea of yourself - if I'm morbidly obese with a face like a pug but believe I look like Kate Moss are others obliged to affirm that belief^^ and I'm justified in feeling it's literal violence if they don't?

That's giving other people huge amounts of power over you, which doesn't seem like a good thing for mental health & wellbeing.

“Misgendering can be a contributor to suicide in the sense that in many trans people's minds, it becomes aligned with or triggers symptoms of body dysphoria, which can cause major mental health issues.“

So your saying that not affirming someone’s identity could actually lead on to major mental health problems? Do you have any evidence for this, or anyone else who backs up this claim?

I work in a male dominated field and have lost count of the number of times that I have had communications addressed to me as a man, despite an very normal female first name. Speaking to female colleagues, this is not unusual. And yet somehow here we are, functioning as normal professional grown ups and not threatening to kill ourselves or sue people who are at best ignorant or at worst a bit rude.

@rosesandflowers you said "If you refuse to accept people's gender identity, then you're usually transphobic,"

What does "accepting someone's gender identity" mean, to you?

It seems like you're saying that thinking sex and gender are different means you're transphobic? I couldn't care less what people look like or dress like, but I don't agree that it is possible to change sex by changing your appearance. I accept people's appearance and personality as who they are, but that apparently isn't enough. I must agree that this is their gender identity, which supersedes and replaces their sex.

Deydo, that is a very different situation. You can’t honestly think it’s comparable.

AssisinatedBeauty, unfortunately on here most people are determined to use their ‘right’ to deliberately and persistently misgender a colleague. Accidental misgendering is embarrassing for both parties but ultimately not what we’re talking about here.

If accidental - no big deal. If done deliberately, then it is done to wound and hurt.

I was on a bus once and a young mum and dad were sitting near me. The dad was teasing his ≈3 year old daughter by saying 'you're a boy' and she would scream at him 'I'm not a boy I"m a girl' and finally when he did it about the fourth time she just burst into tears screaming 'no, I'm a girl'. Her mum then shouted at him to stop winding her up. Most humans have a strong built in need to be seen as the sex they know, or feel, they are.

I had this all my life.
But you know you are a woman and apart from casual misgendering it doesn't drastically affect your life.

It doesn't mean you have a body, or parts of your body, that feel embarrassingly the 'wrong sex', or look in the mirror and see a face that looks like the wrong sex, or can't be intimate or have sex with someone the way you want to, or find it hard to find a partner because you're not accepted as the sex you feel you are, or can't have children. For some trans people every time they are misgendered it is a reminder of all that, and for many it's painful.

Most professionals who treat gender dysphoria believe there is a core gender identity, and that is what underlies the feeling that a person is a particular sex (or should be). For most people they are identified with the physical sex they are anyway, so it won't feel any different from being an identity that is actually based on that physical/ biological reality.

If accidental - no big deal. If done deliberately, then it is done to wound and hurt.

What do you mean 'deliberate'? Calling a man a man is not accidental or deliberate - it is stating a fact.

"So your saying that not affirming someone’s identity could actually lead on to major mental health problems? Do you have any evidence for this, or anyone else who backs up this claim?"

My partner needed therapy after being repeatedly mis-gendered on Mumsnet.

If I met a bloke who told me his name was Jenn, or some other female name, I'd be happy to refer to him by that name, BUT I would still use the pronouns for his biological sex because that's reality (and the way our language works) and I'm not prepared to lie and going against my beliefs in order to validate someone else.

The dad was teasing his ≈3 year old daughter by saying 'you're a boy' and she would scream at him 'I'm not a boy I"m a girl' and finally when he did it about the fourth time she just burst into tears screaming 'no, I'm a girl'. Her mum then shouted at him to stop winding her up. Most humans have a strong built in need to be seen as the sex they know, or feel, they are

Yes - he was lying to a 3 year old. Completely different from refusing to pretend to an adult.

SupermatchGame you think it’s painful not to have your gender identity affirmed. Is it any more than just a bit painful though? Do you agree with a PP that it might lead to mental health problems or suicide?

My partner needed therapy after being repeatedly mis-gendered on Mumsnet.

Therapy? Come on now.

No it doesn't. Stop being so melodramatic. It means that you do not believe that humans can change sex. Which they can't. Men need to realise that women will always see them as men, and men will always see them as men. If it is triggering, then they need to see a medical professional.

Interesting how you only discuss trans women - or "men", as you refer to them, in your post.

Gender and sex are different things and always have been. Gender is a social construct and it's mostly due to colonisation and "religious" ideals that we see it as a man/woman binary in our current world. Hugely ignorant of other cultures & history to pretend different.

Someone having a biological sex and their gender not being typically associated with that (in the modern Western view) aren't mutually exclusive.

So your saying that not affirming someone’s identity could actually lead on to major mental health problems? Do you have any evidence for this, or anyone else who backs up this claim?

Not necessarily that it will "lead on", but it can seriously amplify/trigger problems that are already there.

If someone has been through the horrifying process of conversion therapy, where they would most likely be misgendered constantly, to have someone purposefully and spitefully misgender them could trigger traumatic memories. This could lead to panic attacks or harmful coping strategies such as self harm that they use to cope with said memories. If they are already building up to it, it could be a sudden catalyst to an attempted suicide.

Similarly, body dysphoria isn't caused by misgendering. However, misgendering can, in a way "remind" someone that they are trans. Trans people don't go around their everyday lives furiously thinking "I'm he, not she, I'm he not she". Somebody suddenly calling them the incorrect pronouns might force them to become much more self-conscious/aware and bring on discomfort or dysphoria.

I think you can find many stories/accounts/anecdotes from trans people like this. I'll see if I can find any to post to this thread.

What does "accepting someone's gender identity" mean, to you?

It seems like you're saying that thinking sex and gender are different means you're transphobic? I couldn't care less what people look like or dress like, but I don't agree that it is possible to change sex by changing your appearance. I accept people's appearance and personality as who they are, but that apparently isn't enough. I must agree that this is their gender identity, which supersedes and replaces their sex.

No; the opposite, in fact. Generally thinking sex and gender are the same is a sign of transphobia.

Gender identity has nothing to do with personality/clothing. Liking pink and fashion doesn't mean you're a girl. Liking blue and sport doesn't mean you're a boy. Trans people generally try to fit into stereotypes because this just makes their life easier in a culture in which gender stereotypes are very prevalent. It can also soothe dysphoria in some ways because, like I said, gender stereotypes are hugely pervasive currently and it can help.

However, gender is what pronouns are attached to, not sex. Accepting someone's gender identity means, to me, that you understand that you will never be able to control or understand anybody else's gender, and that they are what they are. Preferred pronouns, names and titles are a way of expressing that.

'To say you know someone's gender better than they do is to put your own experience of gender over theirs, '

What does 'put your own experience over theirs' mean?
My experience of other human beings tells me that:

1. Sometimes people are mistaken in their beliefs about themselves
2. Sometimes they are not speaking in good faith.

Does your experience of humanity not tell you the same?

That's giving other people huge amounts of power over you, which doesn't seem like a good thing for mental health & wellbeing.

This is very true and it is the trans people that are able to reach a point where they can say that, that are probably happier as people. That and a combination of being able to change physical features enough to reduce dysphoria, which is possible for some people (not all). It doesn't change the fact that misgendering confronts them with a reality that may be painful though. Because it still conflicts with how they see themselves.