Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

Given that gender dysphoria is no longer a pre-requisite for being transgender (and I understand from what I’ve read that thinking it is a necessary part is considered transphobic) can someone explain to me why pronouns etc are so important to those people who don’t have GID? That argument doesn’t hold water. You cannot say that failure to use correct pronouns or deadnaming are detrimental to the mental health of trans people because of dysphoria but also demand that those rules are followed for someone who says they are transgender but don’t have GID because that’s not a requirement for being transgender anymore.

YY Poppy exactly.

Once more so you can't pretend the thread just ran out of room! Daim and/or Gib, at what point in transition has a person changed sex, and what was the mechanism by which that change occurred?

Will keep asking this until an answer is forthcoming.

Again, trans women don't feel they are women - they know they are women just like we do.

How? Tell me exactly how?

I know I am female because I have the biological traits - breasts, sex organs, hormones, chromosones.

Do I "feel" like a woman? No. I can't tell you what "feeling like a woman" is, because I don't know myself. I'm a person and I go through life like any other.

What I can tell you is that I am frequently reminded of being female when I am treated in ways which are particular to my sex. Here are a few examples:

• When I am sexually harassed;
• When I am paid less than a man;
• When I am asked in an interview if I have children or plan to have them;
• When told that something is "women's work".

So please do explain to me what "feeling like a woman" means? I can't help but notice that all of the examples which are commonly used by radical TRAs are stereotypical gender situations - I like pink, I like playing with "girl's toys", I am not "manly", I am emotional and empathetic. Does that mean that a female who is not emotional, hates pink, likes war games and doesn't give a shit about someone's feelings, is a man?

Really have a think about it, because when you do you'll realise that there is no "feeling" like a woman, or a man. There is our biological sex and the rest is personality and socialisation.

I'm also wondering if Gib will ever answer my question as to whether a woman is bigoted for refusing a smear test from a man with AGP.

Or indeed, if they even have any suggestions as to how we can tell?

I want to know where the bleeding was coming from in order that a psychotherapist referral was required.

My DH hates sport and enjoys going shopping - does that make him a woman?

I frequently don't wear makeup - does that make me a man?

On Sunday DH was inside doing the ironing whilst I was outside doing some chainsaw work - what does that say about our respective "genders"?

It's nonsense. And what radical TRAs refuse to see is that if you recognise that it is nonsense, then the concept of being "trans" immediately dissolves - because all you are left with is biological sex.

I frequently hear feminists being chastised as "TERFs" because they don't "centre trans-women in their feminism". What radical TRAs won't accept is that the concept of people who feel "trans" is already centred, through the fact that we are trying to erase gender stereotyping. Feminists want to see an end to the societal norms of "being manly" and "being girly". The problem is that this concept does not suit the narrative of the radical TRAs because they want to be a stereotype. They want to "pass".

Now do you see the issue with blindly accepting the trans narrative?

I'm also wondering if Gib will ever answer my question as to whether a woman is bigoted for refusing a smear test from a man with AGP.

I'm all agog.

What's your position, Gib?

surely pleasant human society is based on not saying things we know will upset others for absolutely no good reason?
If only this was all women had to worry about! Or maybe it's actually okay because many men feel they have a jolly good reason as to why they systematically treat females very differently to their fellow male human beings............

Laydees, be NICE repeated ad infinitum, its your job and we'll get angry if you don't.....................

I feel very strongly about having a PhD, about using my name not my husband's name, and about being a female professional. They are all part of my identity and something that women have fought long and hard for.

I get people emailing/writing to me and calling me Mr and also Mrs. Also Mrs DHname. Also Dear Sir.

Yes it's annoying. And yes it's something I'm prepared to complain about. No I'm not going to die of it.

Surely a pleasant society involves being honest and open with each other, not lying or forcing others to lie or collude in a lie, freedom of thought and freedom of speech. Basically everything the TRA agenda is against.

surely pleasant human society is based on not saying things we know will upset others for absolutely no good reason?

Like telling women that they are bigoted for refusing to accept a male-bodied person in a segregated space for females?

Like telling women who are concerned about the proposed changes to the GRA that they are discriminatory for wanting to talk about it and that they must not be allowed to debate?

Like telling women that their language, which identifies and protects them, is transphobic and needs to be amended? Breast-feeding becomes "chest feeding". Pregnant woman becomes "pregnant person". Menstruating woman becomes "person who has periods".

When you ladies start using correct pronouns and correctly gendering and sexing people, I will answer questions.

Like telling lesbians that their refusal to accept the concept of a "lady penis" is discriminatory and that they are bigoted genital fetishists for not wanting to have sex with male bodied persons?

Like telling a woman who has requested a female HCP for a smear test that she is a bigot for refusing to accept a man who identifies as a woman?

Like having to spend thousands on legal fees to defend a law suit from a male bodied person who wanted to be a rape counsellor in a female-only rape refuge?

When you ladies start using correct pronouns and correctly gendering and sexing people, I will answer questions.

You assume that everyone is a lady.

It's already been explained that feminists don't believe in gender constructs.

We are already correctly "sexing " people:
XX = female
XY = male

When you ladies start using correct pronouns and correctly gendering and sexing people, I will answer questions.

Lol. It's because you know that you have no answers. Why should your ability to answer questions rely on our 'being nice'?

Again, another abuser's tactic. Thick and fast.

When you ladies start using correct pronouns and correctly gendering and sexing people, I will answer questions.

Then we are at an impasse, Gibb. If you're not going to engage unless we all lie to you, then you're not going to engage. Might as well just piss off, stop wasting people's time.

When you ladies start using correct pronouns and correctly gendering and sexing people, I will answer questions.

Correct pronouns - I can't know what that is until I have met and spoken to a person who requires use of a pronoun that does not accord with how they appear. So sue me for not being a mind reader!

Correctly gendering - can't ever do that. No matter how hard I try I can't know how someone who believes and actively lives within a gender would label themselves. Even if you only use facebook as your guide, there are at least 73 genders. The chances of my pulling the right one out of a hat is absolutely 0%

Sexing peole Ooer misses But as I can only go on appearance, again that is always going to have an element of chance.

So, well, bye then !!!

GibbertyFlibbert

When you ladies start using correct pronouns and correctly gendering and sexing people, I will answer questions.

Although I agree with Prawn that demanding women's obedience on feminist forum is a bit of a 'read the room, dude' moment and you might as well leave, personally I'd like to thank you for your posts and your presence, as it has highlighted not only the flaws in the ideology, but the relentless demand for female compliance in the face of male dominance.

When you ladies start using correct pronouns and correctly gendering and sexing people, I will answer questions

I'm glad I'm not the only one to see the irony in this

Ladies, do as I’m demanding and only then will I afford you the basic courtesies
Fuckety bye

personally I'd like to thank you for your posts and your presence, as it has highlighted not only the flaws in the ideology, but the relentless demand for female compliance in the face of male dominance.

Agree.

When you ladies start using correct pronouns and correctly gendering and sexing people, I will answer questions..

Aaaand, there you have it. That's what it's all about.

The answer is no. To all your demands of women.

Cheerio now.

"Although I agree with Prawn that demanding women's obedience on feminist forum is a bit of a 'read the room, dude' moment and you might as well leave, personally I'd like to thank you for your posts and your presence, as it has highlighted not only the flaws in the ideology, but the relentless demand for female compliance in the face of male dominance."

MumsNet is not, by its own declarations, a feminist forum.

Also, as you well know plenty of feminists agree with me.

This bit is - it's feminism chat.

You've actually come onto a feminist chat board and demand women obey you, and then followed up by saying many feminists agree!