Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

As this debate has literally reached the point where I'm being told it's emotionally manipulative to say that your actions could have a severe negative consequence to others - WTF - imagine if the world was run like this - I think it's time to leave it.

Good day. I honest to God hope that none of you are raising your children to believe that it's blackmail to be told that you should take the affect on other people into account when making decisions.

Teens are often told that bullying them could severely impact the victim

Referring to males as male is not bullying. Transactivists are the bullies here.

You are mainly speaking about the use of pronouns and chosen names when in fact any suggestion that transwomen are not entitled to be viewed in all cases as women is misgendering and transphobic.

Because the majority of these people have stated they wouldn't use these pronouns - awful, IMO. None of them have answered my question … just called it emotional blackmail. It's interesting to think about what someone would say.

As I've stated in earlier posts, there are environments where I can understand discomfort and it's not fair to prioritise someone's discomfort over another's. But as I said in my last one - I'm leaving this here. It's clear this will never be fruitful.

I don't subscribe to their toxic, nonsensical belief system and do not wish to perpetuate it or collude in my own oppression by males. Any attempt to guilt me into it is manipulative emotional blackmail. I resistant to this, not least as a former victim of such abusive tactics and it makes me feel controlled and bullied. What about that is so terribly hard to grasp?

Indeed, Oscarino: The position is not "use this pronoun, it's such a little thing to ask and it means so much". The position is "I am entitled to everything you have, everything you have fought and worked so hard for. I want it and I will have it and there's nothing you can do about it"

The only possible response to that kind of bullying is to say NO

What does people becoming more functional with treatment have to do with sex being an objective set of organic, physical attributes, not a sense of self?

It validates the idea that cross sex gender identity is a legitimate part of human identity and not a delusion like having 3 eyes with which you compared and contrasted it to earlier.

But drawing upon 'internalised ideas about sex' is one's gender identity. I see gender identity development being like some sort of imprinting process, with biological and environmental antecedents. You probably completely disagree with that? Once it has developed it is permanent because core gender identity forms during the process of individuation.

For most people that imprinting process (or gender identity individuation) aligns with their physical sex. But for some, for whatever reason, it doesn't.

The criteria that determine sex don't have to be changed for someone to be able to alter enough physical characteristics to alleviate their gender dysphoria. The fact that a trans woman was 'born of the class that produce sperm' doesn't mean they can't alter themselves enough to bring their physical body and the perceptions of others around them to more closely match their core gender identity.

To go through life only acting in your interests without taking in anybody else into account is to go through life selfishly.

But this is exactly what a radical section of trans activists are doing. They are demanding that their interests are placed above anyone else and that their right to validation in their chosen identity is more important than the experience of those who have lived that experience their whole lives.

Still does not make them women, though. They are still men.

I'm saying that it would be beneficial for said women to try and overcome that phobia, because it's very very difficult to go through life avoiding men completely.

Seriously? You have the gall to post that while expecting others to dance around pronouns to avoid the oh so serious consequences that misgendering has?

You have a brazen cheek posting that, roses. A fuck load of brazen cheek.

I'm saying that if traumatic experiences in your past have forced you to rebel against requests, because you feel there is some coercion there even when there isn't, you need to get that looked at, because that will impact both you and others.

“Rebel against requests” is an interesting turn of phrase, there.

And Erishkigal said “no” to that request, and you said this:

If - and this is in the kindest way possible - you are actively contributing to the detriment of someone else's mental health because you don't like doing things which you perceive as being coercive, I think you do need some help. I have the utmost sympathy for your situation and think it's awful that something has happened to you. But if the belief that you are being "forced" is solely what means you would find it difficult to respond to a trans person's request to call them by the correct pronouns - especially if this is directly harmful and not just uncomfortable for them - then your past experience is impacting your life and how you interact with others. This won't just impact them but it must be impacting you too.

Erishkigal said “no” to that request, and you replied that she is actively contributing to the detriment of someon else’s mental health.

You are saying that Erishkigal saying “no” to something because she doesn’t believe it is true is actively harming others.

That is indeed coercive.

Hide, pronouns are attributable on the basis of sex. If some kept getting my sex wrong I'd be baffled but that's not the same thing as them failing to recognise my sacred two spirit gender or whatever.

roses

What do you mean by mental detriment? That it will upset so and so if we don't lie about them? And that is the only argument why I should agree that man is woman..because someone may be upset?!? Not because it's actually true. You know it's not true so instead you seek to use emotional blackmail to try to get people to lie. That is the only line of argument..be nice. Lie-but be nice. Sounds like rape culture to me. Don't say no to the poor man..don't make him feel bad.

I consider it far better to have integrity. I will not lie just because someone tells me "bad things will happen if you don't".

It sounds horribly like something an abuser would say-lie or you will see what you have done to me.

Women recognise this behaviour and this woman isn't conned by it

Oh. I made roses leave. I was trying to make the point that me and I’m sure lots and lots of lurkers like me are willing you to show understanding and nuance but you just don’t.its frustrating.

Because I do kind of understand where you are coming from as I am the ultimate floating voter in life, but your argument is deeply flawed. Sos.

I'm not saying women should be forced to share spaces with men if they have an intense phobia of them. I'm saying that it would be beneficial for said women to try and overcome that phobia, because it's very very difficult to go through life avoiding men completely.

No woman should have to have a phobia of men to not want them in her spaces. She should just not want them in her spaces and that wish should be just fine. Men should respect women and leave them the fuck alone.

Because in one instance, the issue the person has with society can be changed. The issue is the way people behave towards them. So, if people change how they behave towards them, they can fix it.

Again, it’s going to be very difficult to get everyone in the world to go along with that. Not just friends, family and co-workers. Everyone, including the cashier at the shop who refers to a person who is obviously male as “sir” when that person identifies as woman. And if one cannot handle that without becoming suicidal, then one cannot function in society.

In the other, the issue the person has is that a group of people which make up around half of the population exist within society. Those people can't just disappear.

No they can’t. But there are society-wide and society-changing ways we could address that. Like addressing male violence and rape culture. And maintaining female-only spaces. And supporting women who wish to have female-only spaces and places.

SMG
But drawing upon 'internalised ideas about sex' is one's gender identity. I see gender identity development being like some sort of imprinting process, with biological and environmental antecedents. You probably completely disagree with that? Once it has developed it is permanent because core gender identity forms during the process of individuation. Even if this was the case, it is about a perdon’s gender identity, not their sex

For most people that imprinting process (or gender identity individuation) aligns with their physical sex. But for some, for whatever reason, it doesn't. Agee

The criteria that determine sex don't have to be changed for someone to be able to alter enough physical characteristics to alleviate their gender dysphoria. The fact that a trans woman was 'born of the class that produce sperm' doesn't mean they can't alter themselves enough to bring their physical body and the perceptions of others around them to more closely match their core gender identity. And that is great, if it helps them. However, there are significant reasons for wanting to categorise people according to sex in certain contexts. To this end, we should be able to do so

I am all for categorising by gender identity (so long as ‘none’ is an option) whenever categorising by sex is not significant to a given context.

Any attempt to guilt me into it is manipulative

I don't think it needs to be about guilt and you are free to have whatever beliefs you like. As are we all.

Brain tissue is sex steroid sensitive. That is factually correct. It is likely that prenatal hormones have an influence on brain development. That could influence gender identity development along with other factors including environment. The mechanisms governing aetiology are feasible.

Even if it there is no biological component (and most medics/ researchers believe there is) it doesn't invalidate the concept; cross sex gender identity is something that has been observed in clinical settings for many decades.

If society comes to one set of understandings, laws and processes and you are opposed to them then that is your right. If the greater part of society legitimises those standards and ways of being as both custom and law, then of course you have the option to opt out of at least one of those, but not really the other. You can say what you like in your own home, but you can't misgender someone in the workplace and expect to keep your job.

I realise this isn't always the case, if the suffragettes hadn't gone against society and the law then women wouldn't have the vote. But I'm assuming human civilisation is in a different place today and that society is making more rational decisions than it did 100 years ago.

If you see trans women as men and feel that you are being forced to accept them in female space I can see how that could feel like having your boundaries violated as has happened to you before. I feel like that is maybe painful for you (could be wrong) and making you angry. I don't think that is trivial or unreasonable. I don't know what the solution is.

If you see trans women as men and feel that you are being forced to accept them in female space I can see how that could feel like having your boundaries violated as has happened to you before. I feel like that is maybe painful for you (could be wrong) and making you angry. I don't think that is trivial or unreasonable. I don't know what the solution is.

Thank you that we've at least got to the heart of it. Many women feel like this. That's why we are fighting it so hard.

Does Rosesandflowers have any other threads?

Or has she commented on other threads?

Brilliant post on alternative 'genders' in non western cultures, @FermatsTheorem

If you see trans women as men and feel that you are being forced to accept them in female space I can see how that could feel like having your boundaries violated as has happened to you before. I feel like that is maybe painful for you (could be wrong) and making you angry. I don't think that is trivial or unreasonable. I don't know what the solution is.

I actually feel quite emotional that someone has finally, finally understood.

"No woman should have to have a phobia of men to not want them in her spaces. She should just not want them in her spaces and that wish should be just fine. Men should respect women and leave them the fuck alone."

Totally agree but we are only talking about women sharing spaces with other women

Seriously, if she's posted other threads or commented on them, does anyone have a link??

Why, @Madethistoaskaquestion ? A quick search of the username reveals the answer to your question (yes she has).