Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

It didn't actually address it any of the times you have posted it. It just means you give the feelings of males with delusional psychological issues primacy over those of females.

No - I said that a woman incapable of interacting with males would have no way of coping within society. There's no way she'd be able to live a life unable to talk to or look at a man without extreme fear or distress. Being a man isn't something you could control. Their behaviour would be irrelevant - her issues are based on men, not their behaviour. That's not hard to understand.

With a trans person troubled by misgendering, the issues are directly associated with people's behaviour and the way they interact with them - not people just being there.

Others felt that being "trans-exclusive" was transphobia and nothing more.

That is homophobia.

The legitimacy of their identities and transition means that most women have the decency and respect to welcome them into female sex segregated spaces.

I think I might have to partially disagree here.

Often it's not a question of "decency" but, as has been discussed, a phobia. Discomfort isn't telling of decency and it isn't really fair to say whose discomfort takes priority over the other.

In spaces like lunch groups or whatever, I'd say it's the decent thing to do as their penis has no bearing whatsoever. In a place like a spa, I can understand why it might be more uncomfortable.

The legitimacy of their identities and transition means that most women have the decency and respect to welcome them into female sex segregated spaces.

No they don't. Women don't want males in their spaces. When it was the odd transsexual or two we tolerated it to be kind. Not the whole "trans umbrella". We don't want part time Pippa in there thanks. And we don't want men doing our smear tests or being our rape counsellor if we have requested a female.

And where's the decency and respect for women who don't want a man who identifies as a woman doing their smear test SMG? Or flashing them in a psych ward? Or sharing a prison cell? Or insisting on being given a brazilian despite having a cock and balls? Or taking over women's sport?

Why does this decency and respect go one way? Why the fuck should I have respect for anyone who is looking to trample over my hard won rights and freedoms?

I said that if the belief that trans people were trying to "force" her into doing something by requesting it was strongly impacting how she interacted with them, she should look into it as it would probably impact other areas of her life.

So you are saying that a person who does not want to say something that they do not believe is true is off-base and needs to examine that?

@rosesandflowers, those posts hadn't been written when I started typing my reply.

I suffer from severe rheumatoid arthritis, especially in my hands, so I'm very slow at typing as it's extremely painful. I'm also trying to sort out my dc, and generally run a household, etc, at the same time, so sometimes a post will take me hours to compose.

I'm sorry if that annoys you, but I can't help it.

Yes it is. It is manipulative emotional blackmail to get me to participate in a lie which is harmful to me and my interests. I'm not responsible for their feelings any more than they are responsible for mine.

No, you're not "responsible for their feelings". But you could impact them, which could potentially be very damaging! It's your choice to "participate" or not, with that taken into account.

But pointing out that it could have severe consequences for the other person when it very well could is just something you have to consider. If that makes you feel sad, well, I'm not responsible for your feelings. And it would most definitely be a lie to say it couldn't have severe results.

And, FGS @MsBeaujangles - I'm not saying women should be forced to share spaces with men if they have an intense phobia of them. I'm saying that it would be beneficial for said women to try and overcome that phobia, because it's very very difficult to go through life avoiding men completely.

It was based on the example of a woman who couldn't even hear a man's voice. If she goes out the door to collect the post she could very easily hear a man's voice as he walked down the street. It would be extremely difficult to live with. As such, counselling/therapy would help her- as there's no way that she could only exist in sex-segregated spaces. Roads, shops, workplaces etc. wouldn't be able to provide that.

No - I said that a woman incapable of interacting with males would have no way of coping within society. There's no way she'd be able to live a life unable to talk to or look at a man without extreme fear or distress. Being a man isn't something you could control. Their behaviour would be irrelevant - her issues are based on men, not their behaviour. That's not hard to understand.

With a trans person troubled by misgendering, the issues are directly associated with people's behaviour and the way they interact with them - not people just being there.

A person who becomes suicidal when someone doesn’t use their preferred pronouns is similarly unable to cope in society. It is similarly unreasonable to expect that the whole world will go along with a person’s preferred pronouns.

But, again, in one instance you are saying that the world needs to change, and in the other instance you are saying that the individual needs to change.

Whilst there are many sociological factors which can contribute towards sexual attraction - appearance, behaviour, culture and so forth - there is a significant weighting in favour of biological and genetic programming. To use a rather crude example, why would you have gay men who are only interested in being penetrated, rather than doing the penetrating? Who have never had intercourse with a woman and don't intend to? There was a large study in 2012 which found strong evidence of a genetic component in determining male sexual orientation.

Put simply, there is a basic right to determine and have agency over who you want to have sex with. If you support a woman's right to be a lesbian and not want to have sex with penises, then you cannot support the trans-ideology that refusing to have sex with a TIM is discriminatory. Bear in mind that the majority of TIMs retain their male genitalia.

But pointing out that it could have severe consequences for the other person when it very well could is just something you have to consider. If that makes you feel sad, well, I'm not responsible for your feelings

It doesn't make me feel sad. It makes me note that you are attempting to emotionally blackmail me to coerce me to act in a way injurious to my interests.

Nice reversal though there. Quite TRA like.

I suffer from severe rheumatoid arthritis, especially in my hands, so I'm very slow at typing as it's extremely painful. I'm also trying to sort out my dc, and generally run a household, etc, at the same time, so sometimes a post will take me hours to compose.

Ah, I see. Apologies.

So you are saying that a person who does not want to say something that they do not believe is true is off-base and needs to examine that?

Could you please take a class in reading comprehension? I think every post you've made directed at me has been wilful misinterpretation!

I'm saying that if traumatic experiences in your past have forced you to rebel against requests, because you feel there is some coercion there even when there isn't, you need to get that looked at, because that will impact both you and others.

Had a look at the tweets by the way @DailyMailClickBait. Very strange and unprofessional. Quite odd.

It sounds like whoever's running the account has got their wires crossed.

I find it strange that some of the posters who are upset by misgendering are happy to call women 'Cis'.

A person who becomes suicidal when someone doesn’t use their preferred pronouns is similarly unable to cope in society. It is similarly unreasonable to expect that the whole world will go along with a person’s preferred pronouns.

THIS. It is not possible to remodel the world and other people to affirm your notions and worldview in every way.

A person who becomes suicidal when someone doesn’t use their preferred pronouns is similarly unable to cope in society. It is similarly unreasonable to expect that the whole world will go along with a person’s preferred pronouns.

But, again, in one instance you are saying that the world needs to change, and in the other instance you are saying that the individual needs to change.

Because in one instance, the issue the person has with society can be changed. The issue is the way people behave towards them. So, if people change how they behave towards them, they can fix it.

In the other, the issue the person has is that a group of people which make up around half of the population exist within society. Those people can't just disappear.

Because in one instance, the issue the person has with society can be changed.

No it can't. As some people are going to fail to play along.

If I see a man in a female space he's going to know full well I think he's a man. Whether I speak it or not.

There are countless lurkers on this thread willing Roses to have the guts to say:

“Yeah, you’re right.

We should all retain the right to use the correct pronouns if we should so wish, even if I feel it’s wrong to do so.

And yes, I concur that to insinuate if in doing so, you are responsible for someone’s mental health, I am enabling controlling and forced behaviour. And that’s not on.”

The thinly veiled threats that misgendering causes mental distress makes a mockery of the denial that “of course no one is forcing anyone to do anything.”

I came to this debate on the fence, but it’s the trans advocates that have peak transed me.

So really what you're saying is that it's about control. No argument there. It's a power game.

That wasn't directed at you Woman.

It doesn't make me feel sad. It makes me note that you are attempting to emotionally blackmail me to coerce me to act in a way injurious to my interests.

If I'm making a choice, I factor in how it would affect other people. If I could steal my co-worker's money, then yes, that would be beneficial to my interests. It would also negatively impact my co-worker. To take the money would be selfish and cruel.

To go through life only acting in your interests without taking in anybody else into account is to go through life selfishly. To accuse everybody pointing out how others might be affected by those decisions of "emotional blackmail" is ludicrous.

And, as stated, you can be supportive of the end of both sex-based and gender-based discrimination. It's not necessarily pernicious to one to support the other.

But it kind of worked well in the flow! You are absolutely right it’s about control.

I thank you and all the regular posters for your input. Lurking is my usual state but sometimes I’m so irked I have to pop up.

We should all retain the right to use the correct pronouns if we should so wish, even if I feel it’s wrong to do so.

Everyone has the right to do that. That's not something I can change.

And yes, I concur that to insinuate if in doing so, you are responsible for someone’s mental health, I am enabling controlling and forced behaviour. And that’s not on.”

You are not responsible for their feelings and mental health.

But I feel that there are very few excuses for deliberately doing something you know could impact someone's mental health, when you literally just not do that and be about your day.

Reminding others that their behaviour can have consequences is not controlling or abusive, it's fact. It's not manipulative to tell you that your behaviour could affect others. Teens are often told that bullying them could severely impact the victim. Is this "manipulation"? No, it's fact, and they're told these facts so they can try and exhibit basic human decency when interacting with classmates.

Roses
I think a major point of difference here may be in what is seen as mis-gendering. You are mainly speaking about the use of pronouns and chosen names when in fact any suggestion that transwomen are not entitled to be viewed in all cases as women is misgendering and transphobic.

The position is not "use this pronoun, it's such a little thing to ask and it means so much". The position is "I am entitled to everything you have, everything you have fought and worked so hard for. I want it and I will have it and there's nothing you can do about it"

The only possible response to that kind of bullying is to say NO

And, as stated, you can be supportive of the end of both sex-based and gender-based discrimination. It's not necessarily pernicious to one to support the other.

Wrong. That's not my belief. Transactivists don't accept that sex is a meaningful category and are doing all they can to erase it and make women's sex based oppression invisible. I will not collude in that.