Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

Ok so we are not being forced. So we can say no-someone is free to ask but we are free to say no,right?

Except it doesn't work like that. There is emotional blackmail aka coercive control used in order to force a lie

you are actively contributing to the detriment of someone's mental health is just a wolf in sheep's clothing. These are your words. I.e. "if you don't lie look what terrible thing you are doing". Sounds abusive to me.

Well no, a woman who was recently assaulted has already been told to call a man a woman in court. That is the point.

And it was actually considered "provocation" despite happening after the assault and was a reason said male didn't get a more serious sentence.

Wrong one. This one

If - and this is in the kindest way possible - you are actively contributing to the detriment of someone else's mental health because you don't like doing things which you perceive as being coercive, I think you do need some help.

Wait, what? This was written in response to a person telling you that being forced to say something that they don’t think is true - that being forced into going along with something they don’t believe in - triggers memories of abuse.

If people don’t like being coerced into saying something they don’t think is true or to endorse things they don’t believe in, you think they are the ones that need help?

Conversion therapy is abhorrent. Whether it's trying to "convert" a child away from their sexuality or gender identity. It's something I will never support

This is another way TRAs have co-opted lesbian and gay issues for themselves. 80% of children who seek treatment for GID desist from feeling they would like to be of the opposite sex after puberty. That's not even taking into account lots of children who have these feelings but don't seek treatment. Many, many posters on here have experience of this when they were children. It is obnoxious to compare thoughtful treatment of children to avoid a lifetime of medical and surgical intervention with "conversion therapy" for lesbian and gay children.

As far as I can tell from this thread, trans ideology is all about smashing women's boundaries and forcing people to lie while attempting to guilt-trip women by waving the alleged shrouds of poor, so-sensitive TIMs at them. Bollocks to that.

Most of the women on this thread have said No, very very clearly. The type of person who refuses to accept or believe it when a woman says No is a dangerous person to be around. Women generally don't wish to have anything to do with people who refuse to listen when we say No.

No.

It's more about how they ride roughshod over my boundaries as a woman and no one gives a fuck, roses. And this has come about because of the ridiculous lie that these psychologically disordered males are women. And my wish not to perpetuate the erasure of women as a biological oppressed class. But you forget all the cross dressers and other males wishing to play power games with women. Perhaps you just aren't very well informed about these issues. It's not just about dysphoria now.

I gathered that there were other reasons from your previous posts... but seriously, if the "forcing" thing is a big issue (obviously I don't know you but as it's come up a couple of times) I would seek out some support for that.

Lots of people "give a fuck." The fact that I'm arguing with about six people at once proves you're not exactly alone in your viewpoint, even if Mumsnet is a bit of a hotspot for those that are of similar opinions.

Gender-based discrimination and sex-based discrimination aren't mutually exclusive. You can acknowledge and work against both. Trying to devalue trans people instead of just combatting both types of oppression is not only counter-productive and requiring of a lot of energy you could be putting into something else, but it can be very harmful to an extremely oppressed group.

Of course it's not just about dysphoria. It was always going to be broader than dysphoria, it always has been. But to make life better for everybody we have to encompass these issues as one, not uplift one group at the detriment of another.

Do you think women should be forced to be props in the misogynistic sexual fetishism of cross dressers, roses?

If you mean trans when you say "misogynistic sexual fetishism of cross dressers" then that is massively transphobic and awful.

If you're just referring to people with a fetish for crossdressing for some reason, then no, obviously women shouldn't be coerced into being props for that or any other sexual fetish

If people with sexual fetishes were going to coerce anybody, isn't that more of a concern for men? Feminisation is the more popular form of cross-dressing as a sexual thing, isn't it?

Even if Mumsnet is a bit of a hotspot for those that are of similar opinions.

An understanding of basic biology - yeah weird that from a forum based around motherhood.

If you mean trans when you say "misogynistic sexual fetishism of cross dressers" then that is massively transphobic and awful.

You might want to check with Stonewall and other trans advocacy groups on their definition of transgender. Cross dressing fetishists are trans.

@lunamoth581, I was about to make the same point you've made in your post at 17:42.

In the trans example, roses expects everyone else to accommodate the transperson's feelings and change their behaviour to make the transperson feel better about themselves.

Whereas, in the 2nd example, with the woman experiencing distress, roses then expects the woman to make the changes & have therapy to feel better about herself, and not for everyone else to alter their behaviour.

I think that says it all, really.

As far as I can tell from this thread, trans ideology is all about smashing women's boundaries and forcing people to lie while attempting to guilt-trip women by waving the alleged shrouds of poor, so-sensitive TIMs at them. Bollocks to that.

Most of the women on this thread have said No, very very clearly. The type of person who refuses to accept or believe it when a woman says No is a dangerous person to be around. Women generally don't wish to have anything to do with people who refuse to listen when we say No.

No.

This x 1000.

We're concerned with women's and girls' rights and women's and girls' safety. Bolstering TIMs' subjective feelings is not our job, and fuck anyone who says it is.

Wait, what? This was written in response to a person telling you that being forced to say something that they don’t think is true - that being forced into going along with something they don’t believe in - triggers memories of abuse.

If people don’t like being coerced into saying something they don’t think is true or to endorse things they don’t believe in, you think they are the ones that need help?

You do like a bit of misinterpretation, don't you?

I said that if the belief that trans people were trying to "force" her into doing something by requesting it was strongly impacting how she interacted with them, she should look into it as it would probably impact other areas of her life.

Many, many posters on here have experience of this when they were children. It is obnoxious to compare thoughtful treatment of children to avoid a lifetime of medical and surgical intervention with "conversion therapy" for lesbian and gay children.

I was discussing conversion therapy - not any other kind of treatment. It is used to "treat" trans children too.

Except it doesn't work like that. There is emotional blackmail aka coercive control used in order to force a lie
To deliberately misgender someone is to run the risk that they are someone who will have a very poor reaction to it. You have no real way of knowing how badly it will affect them.

It's not "emotional blackmail" to point out that it can easily have negative consequences. It's the truth.

And it was actually considered "provocation" despite happening after the assault and was a reason said male didn't get a more serious sentence.
Can someone link me to what case this was? (and the mermaids tweet?)

SMG
Many trans people do become more functional when given appropriate transition treatment. There is an evidence base to back that up

What does people becoming more functional with treatment have to do with sex being an objective set of organic, physical attributes, not a sense of self?

I realise that people are trans, I want society to be accepting of them and for them to access evidence based support. This does not mean denying the objective criteria that determined categorisation by sex. Trans people can and do thrive in a society that acknowledges sex.

People are born male or female. They remain that way for life. People can and do define and express their gender identity and sometimes, in doing so, they draw upon internalised ideas about sex. The fact that they link their gender identity to sex does not mean that the criteria that determines sex should be changed.

No matter what physical interventions people access, people born of the class that produce sperm will remain that way until death and people who are born of the class that produce ova will remain that way until death.

Whereas, in the 2nd example, with the woman experiencing distress, roses then expects the woman to make the changes & have therapy to feel better about herself, and not for everyone else to alter their behaviour.

I think that says it all, really.

This is copied and pasted from the third time I had to say it:

A woman who is unable to interact with any man without extreme fear and distress will spend the majority of her time either terrified or inside her house. This will not change based on the behaviour of those around her, she is afraid of men, point blank, no matter what they do.

A trans person for whom misgendering is a direct trigger for suicidal thoughts, traumatic flashbacks etc. will only have issues if they are misgendered. As such, not being misgendered means that they will be fine, though they should probably also receive counselling to work through things if their reaction to misgendering is borne from trauma or mental health issues.

If it's still unclear, please feel free to go back and consult the first and second time and see if that is more understandable.

Roses it was linked to earlier in the thread, but for ease of reference:

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/the-anti-gay-agenda-of-mermaids-uk-transgender-children-charity-and-political-lobby/

Additionally are you aware of radical TRAs promoting the theory of "the cotton ceiling"? That lesbians and gays who don't want to date or have sex with trans-people are being labelled as transphobic and as "genital fetishists"?

The agenda of some of the most vocal TRAs takes on a rather different hue when you start looking at the effects it is having on gay and lesbian men and women.

If it's still unclear, please feel free to go back and consult the first and second time and see if that is more understandable.

It didn't actually address it any of the times you have posted it. It just means you give the feelings of males with delusional psychological issues primacy over those of females.

The case of Tara Wolf. Note the judge's comments about use of pronouns.

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/transgender-activist-tara-wolf-fined-150-for-assaulting-exclusionary-radical-feminist-in-hyde-park-a3813856.html

Also worth noting - and what wasn't picked up in court - was that Tara's defence of being scared for her safety if she was "outed" as a TIM, was total rubbish. Tara had a public GoFundMe page, which was created in March 2017. The assault took place six months later.

Roses
A -trans person- woman who has experienced male violence for whom -misgendering sharing spaces with males when they are in a vulnerable situation is a direct trigger for suicidal thoughts, traumatic flashbacks etc. will only have issues if they are -misgendered forced to share certain spaces with men. As such, not being -misgendered- forced to share these spaces means that they will be fine, though they should probably also receive counselling to work through things if their reaction to -misgendering-- being forced to share said spaces is borne from trauma or mental health issues.

I said that if the belief that trans people were trying to "force" her into doing something by requesting it was strongly impacting how she interacted with them, she should look into it as it would probably impact other areas of her life.

Yes, it does. But I guess I'd better suck it up at all times and make sure to prioritise male feelings.

Ah, thank you! And sorry for missing it.

Additionally are you aware of radical TRAs promoting the theory of "the cotton ceiling"? That lesbians and gays who don't want to date or have sex with trans-people are being labelled as transphobic and as "genital fetishists"?

The agenda of some of the most vocal TRAs takes on a rather different hue when you start looking at the effects it is having on gay and lesbian men and women.

The first time I heard this was from my DD, discussing it with her friends. Not long ago.

Some were of the opinion that some lesbians/gay people were "trans-inclusive" and others "trans-exclusive" and that came innately with sexuality. Others felt that being "trans-exclusive" was transphobia and nothing more. One girl pointed out that most lesbians/gay men would be perfectly attracted to a passing trans person should they not know their sex organs.

I never actually came to a particular opinion on it. I'd be open to dating a trans man (if I wasn't married, obviously) but that obviously doesn't define how everybody else would feel about it. I'd say that trying to force someone to date a person they didn't want to is wrong in any circumstance.

Willing to be educated on this though because literally, I heard about it a week ago.

Strike through fail, but I hope that helps Rose understand. I doubt it somehow as they seem determined not to!

It's not "emotional blackmail" to point out that it can easily have negative consequences. It's the truth.

Yes it is. It is manipulative emotional blackmail to get me to participate in a lie which is harmful to me and my interests. I'm not responsible for their feelings any more than they are responsible for mine.

Sorry, forgot to add:

Tara had a public GoFundMe page specifically to fundraise for voice-surgery, which is designed to shorten the vocal cords and feminise a male voice. The page was taken down but an archived copy exists. The opening paragraphs read:

Hi, I'm Tara and I'm a 25 year old trans woman.

Right now I'm transitioning and I'm saving up for voice surgery. The procedure shortens the vocal chords, which will feminise my voice so it matches my identity, and allow me to pass completely.

The above does not align with Tara's defence of being frightened of being publicly identified as trans.

to stay the fuck out of female sex segregated spaces.

The legitimacy of their identities and transition means that most women have the decency and respect to welcome them into female sex segregated spaces.