Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

While it may make the trans man uncomfortable, the woman clearly is traumatised and forcing her to live with him would be counter-productive, and as such she needs to be prioritised. She will need support in the refuge, obviously.

The question, which you have neatly ducked, was about TIMs not TIFs.

I've gathered you've all got a lot of feelings about this word … so am going to stop using it. Is "non-trans" a preferable substitute

Give it a fucking rest you utter twat.

Awareness about what? I am aware of their psychological issues and need to control people, I don't think I should be forced to lie in a way which erodes the concept of women as an oppressed sex class. And I think you have a total lack of consideration of other women. Which isn't very decent. So there we go.

I meant in the sense the sense that your "lying", as you put it, could have an enormous impact. Nobody has answered my question yet. What would you do in that situation? Would you seriously and deliberately misgender them if they had endured conversion therapy, had severe mental health issues, or come from an abusive transphobic household?

If so, you could be contributing to someone's severe issues based on a principle. I think that's disgusting.

So abused women have to fucking put up with males in refuges etc, but we should change the fabric and nomenclature of society to accomodate "Mentally ill trans people" (your words)?

1. Abused women shouldn't have to have males in refuges.
2. This reminds of me what someone was saying earlier First you're gender-critical, then it's the "fabric of society"! When I was discussing mentally ill people, I was discussing trans people with a history of self-harm and suicide. Yes, I think we should do everything we can do to help any person suffering with mental health issues like that.

In situation 1, it is everyone else that needs to accommodate the person feeling distressed by honoring their wishes. In situation 2, you appear to be asserting that people feeling a similar level of distress should not be accommodated, and actually need therapy to overcome their objections to the situation. The people in situation 2 need to change, not everyone around them.

Is this what you are trying to say, or am I misreading?

Misreading.

If you're trans, being able to live life as your identifying gender is the best way to be happy, healthy and to succeed, as I think I've said.

If you have an intense fear of men (as stated before, not just discomfort in them being allowed into areas you'd prefer to be sex-segregated, not a phobia) addressing that fear is the best way to be happy, healthy and to succeed.

Similar levels of mental stress, maybe, but entirely different situations.

The question, which you have neatly ducked, was about TIMs not TIFs.
Whoops - a mistake. But as I asserted in the post, obviously a traumatised woman would come first.

Not if she knows "he" isn't actually a man. Which in most cases is perfectly obvious.
You think that just because he didn't have a vagina she wouldn't be scared? If she's traumatised by the figure/silhouette of a man and a man's voice? And he passes well, maybe takes hormones - just has a vagina?

And if you Google "pre-op" trans man, some are fairly obvious. Some are not at all.

Why would he be “uncomfortable “? Surely the full weight of misgendering would fall upon him with all its triggering impact.

And if he’s uncomfortable not being allowed in and she would be uncomfortable if he was allowed in - equal amounts of discomfort, what then?

Just wondering rose if I can't quite come round to thinking women can have penises, does that in itself make me a 'terf'?

So, let me get this straight; you'd call someone "he" throughout their whole life. Then one day, they'd go into a surgery room, get their penis lopped off and a vagina constructed, and you'd be happy to call them "she"?

"he" and "she" are third person. You don't address someone in third person. You call them "you" or use their name.

Oscarina. Third space sorts the problem

@rosesandflowers

If you have an intense fear of men (as stated before, not just discomfort in them being allowed into areas you'd prefer to be sex-segregated, not a phobia) addressing that fear is the best way to be happy, healthy and to succeed.

I'm sure there are plenty of women with a history of assault or abuse who can generally function well but need some spaces to be segregated by sex - places where they feel more vulnerable such as changing rooms. According to some TRA types feeling like this makes you transphobic and literally (their word) responsible for transwomen's deaths so you have a duty to have counselling.

Personally I think that's bonkers. Counselling doesn't work for everyone, it can be difficult to get unless you have the money to pay and even then you have to find the right counsellor for you and even then you have to do it for yourself not for anyone else.

Transmen don't seem to go round saying that sort of thing.

And for the record, I'll call a person whatever name they choose and he/she/it whatever. But there are limits, and there are some women-only places that I don't think Transwomen should be in, generally they would be support services/accommodation for women who have been abused, raped and/or suffered DV, prisons, hospital wards and changing rooms. There also needs to be limits on which women's sports Transwomen can participate in.

@rosesandflowers, nobody identifies as a man; if you were born with a penis, testes, etc you are male (and when grown up you're a man), whether you like it or not.

If you're born with a vulva, vagina, etc, you're a woman aka female, and believe me, there's no identifying out of it!!

Would you seriously and deliberately misgender them if they had endured conversion therapy, had severe mental health issues, or come from an abusive transphobic household?

No, I would avoid using pronouns at all. I wouldn't lie to prop up a psychological delusion.

"he" and "she" are third person. You don't address someone in third person. You call them "you" or use their name.

Exactly.

A trans woman in a padded bra and fake breasts could also get asked that.....

How does that challenge my point that sexual harassment is rooted in female biology? If anything it proves it is body and not identity.

A man transitioning to female body type (as opposed to wanting to identify female whilst retaining the physical and societal privileges of males) may well get comments in the street similar to those women receive. However they won't suddenly gain the lifetime experience of being the second sex and the cumulative effect of growing up with million small acts of harassment and control due to being female.

Their lived experience is necessarily different.

I was identified as second class from the day I was born, society reinforced that in endless little ways growing up. Undoubtedly I internalised some of that misogyny, however feminist I might think myself.

These are not experiences anyone growing to adulthood with male privilege can share. Any more than I would presume to tell someone what it is like to grow up with gender dysphoria.

Rose
The 'fabric of society' is based on the fact that humans are a sexually dimorphic species. Which is exactly the Gender Critical position.

Not the fucking gender guff that you come out with.

and back

Not read the whole thread, because I'm pretty sure I'll find it far too distressing, but just in short - surely pleasant human society is based on not saying things we know will upset others for absolutely no good reason?

There are lots of areas in which I perceive the world differently to other people and so I try and learn to communicate in a way that minimizes distress. On MN, for example, I was told TERF was insulting and offensive and so I learned to switch to 'gender critical'.I was told 'cis' was upsetting to hear, so I stopped using it. On a broader level, we no longer refer to People of Colour as 'nggers' or people from Pakistan as 'pkis'. I don't tell other women they look fat, or tell women who are having problems with fertility that I don't get what the big deal is - I got pregnant in a heartbeat, but if they can't manage it, they should stop whining.

In all those cases, I bet those people have family and friends who affirm their life experiences and how some words make them feel. I still don't think it's reasonable to say "well, so what's the big deal if someone at work wants to say this stuff?"

@GibbertyFlibbert, have you explained where/what the bleeding was yet?

It makes no sense to send a patient that's bleeding to a psychiatrist unless they were convinced of something weird and the Dr. suspected mental health issues were at play, eg, like a man thinking he's having a period, which is as ridiculous as it is impossible.

If you have an intense fear of men (as stated before, not just discomfort in them being allowed into areas you'd prefer to be sex-segregated, not a phobia) addressing that fear is the best way to be happy, healthy and to succeed.

So you are saying that women need to address the source of their distress to help them be more resilient when dealing with men, but trans people should not have any kind of therapy to help them be more resilient when dealing with misgendering.

So you are saying that one group’s distress should be accommodated by society, but the other group needs to deal with it individually through therapy.

Similar levels of mental stress, maybe, but entirely different situations.

What is so different here? We’re talking about people experiencing distress. How is it that misgendering is such a specially distressing situation that trans people need accommodating; but it is not such an especially distressing situation that women who have experienced rape or assault or trauma at the hands of men need therapy to get over their pathological fear of men, not accomadation?

"When I was discussing mentally ill people, I was discussing trans people with a history of self-harm and suicide"

According to the dodgy figures from Mermaid and Stonewall, that's at least half of them. And 'triggered' by all the misgendering. Does this 'therapy' you prescribe for tramatised women ever extend to these 'mentally ill' people then or it is just abused women who need to get their heads sorted?

No - conversion therapy is a tool used to try and literally "convert" LGBT+ teens from their identity. It's absolutely awful and I think the suicide rates are about 50%. I've read some accounts and they're heartbreaking.

Yes they are heartbreaking. How do you feel about Mermaids' definition of what makes a child "trans": that a "cis" child is happy in their gender and "fancies the opposite sex" and a "trans" child is one who doesn't? What do you think the implications are for gay and lesbian children? When viewed through the lens of what you've just written, it's almost as if they are suggesting conversion therapy for same-sex attraction...

So you are saying that women need to address the source of their distress to help them be more resilient when dealing with men, but trans people should not have any kind of therapy to help them be more resilient when dealing with misgendering.

So you are saying that one group’s distress should be accommodated by society, but the other group needs to deal with it individually through therapy.

If a woman has an intense phobia of men, she can go through therapy to help herself cope. Or, if it's distressing to the level described in a previous post, where she finds it traumatising to hear a man's voice, she can avoid men forever.

How would society accommodate this? Female-only workplaces, shops? This would be a huge accommodation, and how exactly would you put into place female-only roads or streets? There's no way that a society could manage to accommodate her not coming into contact with men. She'd have to deal with this herself - by essentially not going out. Not healthy. At all.

In order for her to have a functioning life, she will have to learn to cope with this trauma.

For a trans person the adjustment we're talking about is literally saying "she" instead of "he", or vice versa. In other cases on the gender spectrum, "they". Might be a bit confusing at first, but we're not talking rebuilding an entire city. And, if somebody finds misgendering extremely triggering and there are no other factors, surgery will probably happen at some point. This will solve their issue with misgendering.

Of course if they have other mental health problems/trauma then that should be sorted out to enable them to be happier as well.

OK-let me see if I have this right.
Woman suffers actual physical harm, abuse and potential threat to life. Woman is traumatised. Woman told she has to 'get over' trauma by counseling etc so that she doesn't upset any men who say they are women.
Man says he is a woman. Man is traumatised if someone calls him by a pronoun he doesn't like. Man told his trauma is totally justified and that all efforts will be made to make sure he is never traumatised again.
Is that about it??

According to the dodgy figures from Mermaid and Stonewall, that's at least half of them. And 'triggered' by all the misgendering. Does this 'therapy' you prescribe for tramatised women ever extend to these 'mentally ill' people then or it is just abused women who need to get their heads sorted?

Yes, a large number of trans people have some kind of mental health issue. Not surprising really.

As stated in my previous post, if a trans person has another mental health problem or trauma of course they should receive help for it. Just as any person with a mental health issue should receive help for it.

Yes they are heartbreaking. How do you feel about Mermaids' definition of what makes a child "trans": that a "cis" child is happy in their gender and "fancies the opposite sex" and a "trans" child is one who doesn't? What do you think the implications are for gay and lesbian children? When viewed through the lens of what you've just written, it's almost as if they are suggesting conversion therapy for same-sex attraction...

Conversion therapy is abhorrent. Whether it's trying to "convert" a child away from their sexuality or gender identity. It's something I will never support.

Is that the definition Mermaids gives out? When did they say that?

If so how very garbled and unprofessional … and just plain wrong. My only real understanding of Mermaids was that they helped trans children/parents of trans children adjust and provided resources/help.

It makes no sense to send a patient that's bleeding to a psychiatrist unless they were convinced of something weird and the Dr. suspected mental health issues were at play, eg, like a man thinking he's having a period, which is as ridiculous as it is impossible.

I imagine that the partner went to the Doctor as they were bleeding, Doctor fixed the bleeding but noticed they were extremely upset by the event and referred them to a psychiatrist to help them cope.

Of course I don't know but that's what's most plausible.

surely pleasant human society is based on not saying things we know will upset others for absolutely no good reason?
For a lot of people, "I just don't believe in trans people" is a good reason.

Sad, really.

Is that about it??

Yep.

You cannot possess a gender identity if there is no meaning to the word gender.

Yes you can possess a gender identity. It is your internal sense of what sex you are.