Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

She wants to include males in her description of "woman".

"Is "non-trans" a preferable substitute?"

No woman is enough. Is that you Aimee?

Non trans?? Stop othering women Rose...we are WOMEN! Why is that so hard for you to understand? Refer to us as women.

Roses.

Do you believe in the idea of a woman's penis?

Yes. I think that sums it up! A man can choose how he is called (you really don't see m/nay transmen calling for men to be erased) but a woman cannot be accorded the same privilege!

"Cis man" is definitely a term used. IME, often to refer to the most privileged group of people e.g. "if another white cishet man tells me what to do..." But a reason why it isn't used often in these discussions could very possibly be that all of you are very centred on trans women. Have you noticed?

Misgendering carries a lot more weight than "cis" ever will - axiomatically - which is why I don't think they're comparable at all. But as it clearly doesn't sit well with most of you and it's unfair of me to refer to you as such if I know you find it upsetting, I said I'd stop.

Weird that you would say that the only therapy offered is conversion therapy then. What did you mean? That obviously doesn't happen in the UK, and isn't the only therapy offered in many other places too.

Interesting how Rose is so keen to earnestly defend all aspects of male “identity” crap and yet can’t even bring herself to use the word “woman” when talking to, you know, women.
Yet doesn’t see the hypocrisy or offensiveness in that.

Non trans?? Stop othering women Rose...we are WOMEN! Why is that so hard for you to understand? Refer to us as women.

I feel like we're barrelling towards a misunderstanding, but sure.

Do you believe in the idea of a woman's penis?
I'd call a trans woman a woman. If she's not having surgery for some reason or got it booked for a later date or whatever, then she has a penis.

So yes, I guess I do.

Is "non-trans" a preferable substitute?

No, it is not preferable. No substitute is needed, since there is already a proper word for someone born with the female sex. Woman.

Women and transwomen works just fine.

But a reason why it isn't used often in these discussions could very possibly be that all of you are very centred on trans women. Have you noticed?

Because trans identified females are f generally our problem. Entitled males who want to take over womanhood and centre their own demands are.

*aren't generally our problem

Weird that you would say that the only therapy offered is conversion therapy then. What did you mean? That obviously doesn't happen in the UK, and isn't the only therapy offered in many other places too.

Well generally, therapy sessions would be to determine if you are trans. In my understanding it's very often done for young children.

Once you are established as trans, the only therapy offered to reverse the reality of being trans is conversion therapy (unless I've misunderstood). Which doesn't really reverse it, and is hugely psychologically harmful.

Interesting how Rose is so keen to earnestly defend all aspects of male “identity” crap and yet can’t even bring herself to use the word “woman” when talking to, you know, women.
Yet doesn’t see the hypocrisy or offensiveness in that.

It's not only people with penises that identify as trans or elsewhere on the gender spectrum, you know

I'd call a trans woman a woman. If she's not having surgery for some reason or got it booked for a later date or whatever, then she has a penis.

So there we have it. A man with a penis can be a woman.

It is just not possible to argue logically with such a point of view.

Because trans identified females are f generally our problem. Entitled males who want to take over womanhood and centre their own demands are.

So, due to you being most likely to be affected by trans women, you're pushing the focus on them even in general areas of conversation that apply to all trans people?

And now someone has complained that the term "cis men" isn't used often in the conversations?

Well of course it's not!

I'd call a trans woman a woman. If she's not having surgery for some reason or got it booked for a later date or whatever, then she has a penis.

Ludicrous.

Roses

Here is a hypothetical

A woman has escaped domestic violence and is living in a women’s refuge. The violence she was subjected to has left her traumatised- the sound of a man’s voice, the sight of a male figure, no matter how it is dressed, make her relive her fear and pain and cause her mental and emotional damage.

A man who identifies as a woman believes he should have access to the same refuge. He believes that to refuse that access on the grounds that he is male is transphobic and misgendering.

Whose interests prevail?

It is just not possible to argue logically with such a point of view.

So, let me get this straight; you'd call someone "he" throughout their whole life. Then one day, they'd go into a surgery room, get their penis lopped off and a vagina constructed, and you'd be happy to call them "she"?

In all honesty, if you'd genuinely refuse to call a trans person their preferred pronouns, I think it's profoundly difficult to debate. It shows a total lack of awareness and decency.

But here we are.

Absolutely not.

In the post it was asserted that it would be a comparable situation. General discomfort is natural. It's not comparable to the excessive reactions to misgendering I was discussing.

Apologies for not making this clear.

So wait, we’re talking about two situations which can cause distress - (1)trans people being misgendered, and (2)women being faced with a male human being in a female space.

In situation 1, it is everyone else that needs to accommodate the person feeling distressed by honoring their wishes. In situation 2, you appear to be asserting that people feeling a similar level of distress should not be accommodated, and actually need therapy to overcome their objections to the situation. The people in situation 2 need to change, not everyone around them.

Is this what you are trying to say, or am I misreading?

Roses

These two statements make your attitude to women really fucking clear

If you have a pathological fear of men, that's incredibly stressful for you. Therapy to lessen this fear would make you feel better. You will most likely have to interact with men throughout your life so it will be impeding social interactions and work. If it's caused by trauma, therapy help you come to terms with this.

Mentally ill trans people can be triggered by misgendering.

So abused women have to fucking put up with males in refuges etc, but we should change the fabric and nomenclature of society to accomodate "Mentally ill trans people" (your words)?

In all honesty, if you'd genuinely refuse to call a trans person their preferred pronouns, I think it's profoundly difficult to debate. It shows a total lack of awareness and decency.

But here we are.

Awareness about what? I am aware of their psychological issues and need to control people, I don't think I should be forced to lie in a way which erodes the concept of women as an oppressed sex class. And I think you have a total lack of consideration of other women. Which isn't very decent. So there we go.

A woman has escaped domestic violence and is living in a women’s refuge. The violence she was subjected to has left her traumatised- the sound of a man’s voice, the sight of a male figure, no matter how it is dressed, make her relive her fear and pain and cause her mental and emotional damage.

A man who identifies as a woman believes he should have access to the same refuge. He believes that to refuse that access on the grounds that he is male is transphobic and misgendering.

Whose interests prevail?

While it may make the trans man uncomfortable, the woman clearly is traumatised and forcing her to live with him would be counter-productive, and as such she needs to be prioritised. She will need support in the refuge, obviously.

The trans man needs to be referred to a mixed refuge if this is possible. If possible again, a woman's refuge where this isn't an issue - one where there isn't a chance of a similarly traumatised woman needing a place.

If no other option is available, a man's refuge (but of course his pronouns etc. should still be respected).

Out of interest - could any of you solve this problem?
A trans man who looks and sounds completely like a man who was born with a penis ((seriously, can I please say cis man?) but has a vagina needs a place in this refuge. If she is traumatised by the figure and sound of a man, he will inevitably terrify her.

What do we do with him?

To unpack your deep internalised misogyny would no doubt require quite a bit of therapy. You are putting the feelings of males over those of women without a second thought.

You’ve got it, Luna. As a pp said, ludicrous! Women have to be constantly educated on how to pander to selfish men, it seems. Even those women who have been attacked and assaulted by them.

If she is traumatised by the figure and sound of a man, he will inevitably terrify her.

Not if she knows "he" isn't actually a man. Which in most cases is perfectly obvious.