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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I just peak-trans'd again!

312 replies

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 11/06/2018 08:38

Who knew peak-transing could be like multiple orgasms?

Anyway just have to share my story. I was just removed from a feminist Facebook group after someone posted about Trans claiming “they are women” and I replied they weren’t.

Someone then called me a “terf” and “trash” and then > I < got removed despite the fact I didn't use any slurs, call anyone names, just stated that me agreeing that trans-women are women is tantamount to claiming 2+2=5 in Orwell's 1984.

I'd peak-trans'd long ago but this is the icing on my womanly (cause y'know, wimminz love to bake) cake.

OP posts:
SomeDyke · 12/06/2018 19:38

we have to classify the reproductive system after surgery as either male or female and female is obviously the better fit.
Appearance is not function, and a fuck-hole isn't the same as a female reproductive system, either partially or incompletely formed (else gay men would have been trying to birth babies out of their bums since forever!).

What you get after surgery is either a removed or an inverted part (for males anyway). As Germaine keeps saying, cutting off your penis doesn't make you a woman. Even inverting it doesn't do it either. It's surgically altered male genitalia (or would you describe chaps who do the whole body-mod split penis thing or the aborginal people they nicked it from as actual lizards?).

Surgery can't change your sex, it merely changes the appearance and possible functionality of your genitalia etc. Which may be extremely useful for those who suffer from dysphoria (and I hope it genuinely does because it is a terrible price to pay if you go through all that and it doesn't help! Unfortunately this isn't always the case, as detransitioners show. I'm sure they believed this nonsense about surgery as well before they went under the knife...........)

GibbertyFlibbert · 12/06/2018 19:38

"It's quite a, you know... specific paraphilia though don't you think? Quite logical why it would be included under that big old transumbrella. By Stonewall etc. No?"

Ask Stonewall. I would be genuinely interested in their answer

Hyppolyta · 12/06/2018 19:39

Gibberty the definition of female is OF the sex that can produce eggs or bear young.

A male who inverts his penis, is castrated or takes hormones, will not be of the female sex.

Even when males no longer produce sperm, they are still of the sex that can produce sperm.

I understand that this isnt pleasant for some to hear, but its also not pleasant to reduce the entire female anatomy down to a hole.

We are slightly more complicated than that.

SupermatchGame · 12/06/2018 19:40

of course some will develop gender dysphoria and transition as they grow older.

Yes once they've got the male heterosexual bit of their lives out of their systems.

Ereshkigal · 12/06/2018 19:40

I'm with you on what you said Fermat, btw.

GibbertyFlibbert · 12/06/2018 19:42

"Surgery can't change your sex,"

Read the Corbett vs Corbett judgment. (Most trans people hate it BTW and it is definitely out of date - these days we allow gender reassignment so any test today would not be a one-off.) Sex is an assessment we make based on several factors. Surgery and hormones change a number of those - enough to change the balance of sex (in biological terms) from male to female or vice versa.

bd67th · 12/06/2018 19:43

@GibbertyFlibbert: As soon as we start saying a trans woman isn't a woman because her body is this or not, who is next? Intersex women? Butch lesbians with loads of tattoos? It is a very slippery slope.

No, it's not. The definition is clear: if your body has produced, will produce in the future, or currently produces the motile gametes called "spermatzoa", you are a male. Man = adult human male. If you are a trans woman, you are still biologically a man. This is biology and is completely unrelated to how you look, behave, present, or feel.

For me it is easy: anyone willing to face society as a woman - with all the disadvantages that entails - by changing their driving licence, passport and bank account to female is a woman.

Except that they don't have all the disadvantages, do they? They won't faint at work from menstrual cramps. They won't travel to another country and pay hundreds of pounds for the IUS that will stop the menstrual cramps. They won't flood during menstruation and have to wash blood out of their clothes in the ladies loos. They won't endure pregnancy, nor maternity discrimination. They'll never have to take a pregnancy test after being raped. They'll never have an abortion, or a c-section, or a nightmarish childbirth. They'll never have mastitis. And judging by how the Labour and LibDem parties and universities are rushing to do what the trans lobby say, I'd suggest that they are still listened to as if they are men, if not more so.

BoreOfWhabylon · 12/06/2018 19:44

Bees communicate via the medium of dance.

No messageboards or twitterspheres for them. No sirree.

We could learn a lot from them.

Ereshkigal · 12/06/2018 19:46

So are you claiming then that sex isn't dimorphic?

I'm not "claiming" anything. I'm making the same point as others. Natural human reproduction is sexually dimorphic. Are you trying to claim infertile people are a different sex? Do you have a third gamete up your sleeve?

birthdaycakeicecream · 12/06/2018 19:46

Gametes are bimorphic indeed but multi-cellular humans are much more complex.

No they're not (apart from the tiny percentage of the population that is intersex). A human's sex is determined by the type of gamete their body type corresponds to. It's really that simple for over 99% of the population.

AssassinatedBeauty · 12/06/2018 19:47

Surgery and cross sex hormones change the appearance to that resembling the opposite sex. That's all. Someone with surgery, cross sex hormones remains a man, but an altered and feminine one.

Ereshkigal · 12/06/2018 19:49

Ask Stonewall. I would be genuinely interested in their answer

It's not even a tiny surprise to me that Stonewall include transvestic sexual fetishists in their definition of "transgender" and think women should STFU about it but it appears to be to you so I suggest you ask them?

bd67th · 12/06/2018 19:50

@GibbertyFlibbert: Surgery and hormones change a number of those - enough to change the balance of sex (in biological terms) from male to female or vice versa.

Not so. Surgery and hormones don't undo a lifetime of testosterone-induced muscle hypertrophy, if they did, Fallon Fox wouldn't have hospitalised her female opponent in that fight and given her an orbital fracture. Surgery and hormones don't reduce the trans woman's height, so if they are 6 ft tall they are staying that tall. How many biological females do you know who are 6 ft tall? Testosterone causes the height differences between males and females. Very importantly, a lifetime of male socialisation and privilege isn't excised when the testes are.

Artemis7 · 12/06/2018 19:54

‘those who change their ID (almost?) all have gender dysphoria but (almost?) none of the transvestites will as defined by the DSM’

Not true transvestites can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

‘Also, when you get right down to it although a doctor might record a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in practice it is largely self-diagnosed so even those with a diagnosis have, to a certain degree, simply self-IDed.’

This is true which is why the GRA needs to go.

From the DSM V:

Gender Dysphoria (p456)

" Adolescents and adults with late-onset gen­der dysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement. The
majority of these individuals are gynephilic or sexually attracted to other posttransition
natal males with late-onset gender dysphoria. A substantial percentage of adult maleswith late-onset gender dysphoria cohabit with or are married to natal females. After gen­der transition, many self-identify as lesbian."

"Natal femaleswith the late-onset form do not have co-occurring transvestic behavior with sexual excitement."

P702-704 ‘Transvestic Disorder

Transvestic disorder occurs in heterosexual (or bisexual) adolescent and adult males (rarely in females) for whom cross-dressing behavior generates sexual excitement and causes distress and/or impairment without drawing their primary gender into question. It is occasionally accompanied by gender dysphoria. An individual with transvestic disorder who also has clinically significant gender dysphoria can be given both diagnoses. In many cases of late-onset gender dysphoria in gynephilic natal males, transvestic behavior with sexual excitement is a precursor.’

‘Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis Transvestic disorder in men is often accompanied by autogynephilia (i.e., a male’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman). Autogynephilic fantasies and behaviors may focus on the idea of exhibiting female physiological functions (e.g., lactation, menstruation), engaging in stereotypically feminine behavior (e.g., knitting), or possessing female anatomy (e.g., breasts).’

‘Specifiers

The presence of fetishism decreases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder. The presence of autogynephilia increases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder.’

Ereshkigal · 12/06/2018 19:56

Unless people have rare mosaicism they bear the same chromosomes in every cell of their "multicelled bodies", Gib. And XX and XY are really quite different genetically. Being female or male can dramatically affect your susceptibility to certain diseases and the symptoms you have, and even how certain drugs work on you.

birthdaycakeicecream · 12/06/2018 19:59

Thanks OldCrone for looking that up by the way, way upthread - very interesting!

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 12/06/2018 20:01

Hi everyone! I hadn't realized this thread has had so many replies.

As it happens, another day, another insane Facebook group I can update you with. This one is for female journalists and has thousands of members. It was meant to be a place for women to help each other in media but, unsurprisingly, has slowly been hijacked. There are now regular updates telling us what we are and aren't allowed to talk about (oof: Handmaids Tale flashback there for a sec!)

First we were told we weren't allowed to start posts with "Hi ladies" or "Hey guys" because it was offensive. Then we were told posting about menstruation was "triggering".

Today someone posted about a trans-woman who was arrested for burning a flag at a protest and was "deadnamed" in the local paper (who went, presumably, from the police report) and was this ethical journalism? The consensus was he shouldn't have been named at all.

Only one journalist pointed out that it would actually be unethical to change editorial policy for one group of people and not use their legal names when they've been arrested & that the only other option is that no one who has been arrested and charged should be named in the local paper.

Obviously that would have wide ranging consequences. Everyone piled on absolutely trashing that person.

Then someone else said it was a disgrace the trans-woman in question was in a men's prison. I argued that was entirely right - a biological male shouldn't be in a women's prison otherwise why is there sex segregation in the first place? I was called "disgusting" and my comments deleted.

Surprise surprise it then turned into a witch hunt calling for "terfs" to be banned yada yada. Here are some choice comments from the thread - which, I repeat again, was started in a WOMEN'S GROUP - for your perusal:

I just peak-trans'd again!
I just peak-trans'd again!
OP posts:
gendercritter · 12/06/2018 20:03

This thread has been making me cross so I've taken myself off to You tube to indulge in some nice videos on there.

And now this thread is just making me feel how wonderful the world is and how brilliant humans are for being so curious about the world that they've explored it in such depth over the last few hundred years, in particular.

Here are some birds of paradise for you.

gendercritter · 12/06/2018 20:05

Confessions Shock

Picassospaintbrush · 12/06/2018 20:08

Poor old Gibberty, what a life, having to churn out all that shite.

gendercritter · 12/06/2018 20:13

Another great video for you, this time on

boatyardblues · 12/06/2018 20:14

This thread is giving me a headache. Can anyone stick me in a time machine back to the mid 80s please? The sexism was atrocious but at least you knew where you stood. This identity politics and the bending of facts is melting my brain. (Disclosure: I am bed with a migraine and my “fuck this shit” bar is on its lowest setting today.)

CrustyCob · 12/06/2018 20:15

@BoreofWhabylon
When bees dance, is it a beesup?
I always see them as more Morris Dancing than Pogo myself.

HotRocker · 12/06/2018 20:22

I have been forced to leave an online lesbian message board that I have been part of for five years because it has become untenably toxic.
A few threads were created to talk about self ID, the erasure of lesbians and women’s safety in prison, but a gang of about three posters have made the environment so vicious, with all their bullying, threats, gaslighting and personal attacks that many of us have just packed up and left. I stuck it out as long as I could but today I just said fuck it, I don’t need that level of headfuckery in my life, it’s just not worth it.
Another lesbian space lost to this transwomen are women bollocks.

WomanLifeIsGoodish · 12/06/2018 20:26

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