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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In reaction to the Government sex segregation Petition response, M&S are finally reconsidering their position on their sexist unsafe and undignified policy.

272 replies

OneHourTwentyFourMinutes · 06/06/2018 18:08

I have had several discussions with M&S who were very much digging their heels in and putting male feelings ahead of sex segregation exemptions in the EA2010. I had another discussion with them today and they are finally looking at their policy again.

Please take action and message them your feminist concerns.

Further discussion www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

Including links to a trans woman who admitted to throwing clothes in an aggressive act, at female staff in a woman's changing room.

OP posts:
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 07/06/2018 15:34

Im not going to own being a bigot when im not

I mean if you feel the urge to own stuff you are not then crack on

Just seems a bit dumb to me

beenandgoneandbackagain · 07/06/2018 15:40

thegoals
I think that many of those brocialists and TRA supporters out there in social media land, don't actually realise what a TERF is? When I explained to some social media friends what the people they were calling TERFs actually believed, I was told that my explanation was wrong, and that all TERFs want to deny transpeople their existence and then the quote "A group of feminists that claims that trans women aren't really women, as biological determinism is only a fallacy when it used against them, not when they use it against others." (Whatever the fuck that means!)

Shortly after that, I was blocked for stating that the people they were calling TERFs were actually feminists who focused their feminism on females. Unfortunately the block came before I was able to get my witty reposte that my feminism does include all women. Wink

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/06/2018 15:44

I'm pretty sure trans women being referred to as "Tims" is pretty offensive to them also

TERF is incorrect. MERF would perhaps be more correct as folk are excluding males, and not excluding trans identifying females. TERF as an acronym is frequently used to attack women. I have never seen anyone say "die in a fire TIF" or "punch a TIM".

Trans identifying male (TIM) and trans identifying female (TIF) are factually correct, and more inclusive than transman/transwoman which assumes that trans is a binary.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/06/2018 15:45

Calling a man a man is a correct description of a man

Pratchet · 07/06/2018 15:47

TIM is correct so what you are saying is

'Rhecteith upsets me so please don't express ot'.

So, no

Pratchet · 07/06/2018 15:49

Grin worst typo ever! I love you all

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 07/06/2018 15:54

I was told that my explanation was wrong, and that all TERFs want to deny transpeople their existence

Well yeah, this insistence that 'terfs' think transpeople do not exist, or actively want to harm them/kill them is just bizarre. Especially when the only violence and such has came FROM TRAs towards feminists, not the other way round.

Feminism is about females. Transmen are females. Thus, the trans exclusionary doesnt make any sense. And thats before even getting to the way terf is used against anyone who questions any aspect of what transactivists say. Usually women, but some men have been called terfs too, men who are not even feminists, nevermind radfems Grin

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 07/06/2018 15:57

Trans identifying male (TIM) and trans identifying female (TIF) are factually correct, and more inclusive than transman/transwoman which assumes that trans is a binary.

Also yes. Trans includes nonbinary and other such labels. A trans identified male/female can be anyone who says they are anything under the trans umbrella. Which is ridiculously wide so its maybe best to lose trans identified alltogether and just go back to using male and female. Though, many transactivist males are trying to say they are actually female now, rather than only taking the word woman. See also: Advanced biology bullshit and saying that because some fish can change sex, this means humans do too. Or other such nonsense.

FesteringCarbuncle · 07/06/2018 15:59

If trans women accepted that they are different to women we wouldn't have these issues and could be allies
The very fact that a trans woman wants to go into womens spaces or take roles like bra fitter or doing cervical smears sets alarm bells ringing for me
It tells me that person puts their own desire for verification before the rights of women to privacy and dignity. The whole TRA movement shows no concern for women

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/06/2018 16:00

See also: Advanced biology bullshit and saying that because some fish can change sex, this means humans do too

Don't forget the strawberries!

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 07/06/2018 16:03

One of the transfish posts were so amusing as the linked part actually said that whatever fish it was did not actually change sex, but that it just disguised itself as the opposite sex in order to infiltrate female groups of fish and mate. Which given the link was posted in a FB thread about how trans males were attacking lesbians sexuality and also that men may pretend to be trans in order to access female areas...well it was all quite funny that the person posting the link did not seem to see what they had actually inferred..

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 07/06/2018 16:04

I think there are actually fish that can change sex, but the facebook one I saw was about a fish that simply pretended to to infiltrate the female fish Grin

I saw someone say too that fungi not having a sex meant humans did not either...or something like that

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 07/06/2018 16:12

TIM/TIF stands for trans identified male/female. It's accurate and inoffensive. It's not a slur.

TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. The "TE" is inaccurate because people who object to TIM in women only spaces do not object to TIF in those spaces. The "RF" part of the acronym is also misleading because plenty of those who want to retain single sex spaces aren't feminists of any stripe, or even women. It's true that radical feminists entirely oppose gender as a construct. But we're not trans exclusionary. We're male exclusionary which, given that feminism centres women and girls, is pretty bleeding obvious.

TERF is a slur. It's a nonsense term used to try to silence women. There are plenty of men who want to preserve single sex facilities, but there is no male equivalent to TERF.

I'm glad to observe that overuse of TERF has led to a diminution of its power as an insult. It's like accusations of transphobia which are hurled for the slightest perceived infraction. If saying that TW are male qualifies as transphobic the term's become absurd. It's the equivalent of saying it's homophobic to point out that gay men have sex with other men

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 07/06/2018 16:16

It's the equivalent of saying it's homophobic to point out that gay men have sex with other men

Yes, finally an accurate analogy rather than 'if you want to exclude men from female areas its the same as excluding black women' or 'trying to help children be happy in their bodies and not take drastic measures young is the same as trying to stop people being gay' and various other transactivists nonsense

Pratchet · 07/06/2018 17:00

I think female identified men would be ok. FIMS. Woman identified men would be WIMS. Which is usGrin

WelcomeToGilead · 07/06/2018 17:20

Why are you laying the blame for TIM at my door? Hmm I’ve never used that phrase?

And it is not bigotry to be fighting against the erasure of women’s rights. There’s a place for everybody, but you can’t sacrifice the rights of a majority over those of a minority without looking like a bigot yourself!

There’s more to being a woman than false eyelashes and tits. If you’re born with penis, you’re still a biological male.

Rachael olezal was roundly mocked for identifying as black. Race and gender are social constructs, so why the double standards?

thebewilderness · 07/06/2018 19:51

Sexual mimicry is not new to the animal world. Both bluegill sunfish (Lepomis macrochirus) and red-sided garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis) are known to make use of it, for example. But male cuttlefish are the only animals known that can turn the change in physical appearance on and off so quickly.

Transgender identified males are still failing to achieve the success of snakes and fish in their efforts at sexual mimicry.

Picassospaintbrush · 07/06/2018 20:59

I'm going to link this now, see how it goes.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 07/06/2018 22:06

Ha! Thank you Picassospaintbrush I finally understand the reference Grin

thebewilderness · 07/06/2018 22:09

Maybe the longer clip will survive the rage of the pornsick weasels.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 07/06/2018 22:10

the rage of the pornsick weasels.
Grin you really do have a way with words Grin

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 07/06/2018 22:46

She does waddle

Worryingly so

R0wantrees · 07/06/2018 22:55

James Kirkup, Spectator article which references Mumsnet:
(extract)
"If this was simply a story of a small number of nasty people online and – sometimes – on the street doing bad things to women who speak up about a political issue, I suspect this problem wouldn’t persist. The relevant legal and political authorities would indeed pay attention to that fear, and maybe even do something, even if that was just listening to those women, meeting them, answering their questions.

But that doesn’t seem to be happening. It’s because those women have been – quite successfully and even skilfully – demonised and stigmatised, put beyond the pale of civilised debate as those who question orthodoxy often are. They’ve been given a name, a name that means they’re bad people, people who should not speak and should not be heard. That name is “Terf,” which once meant “Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist” but now appears to stand in its own right as a term of abuse and dismissal alongside the other short, harsh words often used to question the worth and virtue of women.

And that small number of people who direct violence and abuse at “Terfs” are swimming in a larger sea of contempt and dismissal. Their conduct takes place in a social context where hostility to “Terfs” has become not just normal but even amusing, where there is no social cost to talking about and perhaps even inciting violence towards women who hold “unacceptable” views. Simply, some people, including people who would never themselves engage in that sort of violence, are doing things that make violent discourse and even violence look and feel OK. Sadly, they include journalists and politicians, people who parade their support for minority groups but speak about feminist women in terms they would never use about other people."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/

thebewilderness · 07/06/2018 23:24

Rufustheyawningreindeer

I am sorry to worry you. Is there anything I can say to set your mind at ease?

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 23:46

If saying that TW are male qualifies as transphobic the term's become absurd. It's the equivalent of saying it's homophobic to point out that gay men have sex with other men

Indeed.

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