In reaction to the Government sex segregation Petition response, M&S are finally reconsidering their position on their sexist unsafe and undignified policy.

[OneHourTwentyFourMinutes]

I have had several discussions with M&S who were very much digging their heels in and putting male feelings ahead of sex segregation exemptions in the EA2010. I had another discussion with them today and they are finally looking at their policy again.

Please take action and message them your feminist concerns.

Further discussion www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

Including links to a trans woman who admitted to throwing clothes in an aggressive act, at female staff in a woman's changing room.

Sorry but brain sex 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

And this is why the Trans discussions reminds me of the homeopathy discussions.
The cobbling together of scientific terms into meaningless sentences.
The claim that there is some scientific revolution just around the corner that will blow my old-fashioned ideas of biology out of the water.
The vagueness of the phrasing.

You can never quite tell if the people saying that stuff are earnestly talking nonsense or totally aware that they're lying.

Oh, and cherry picking, I forgot cherry picking of data in my list.

I think they are aware that they are lying but gaslighting has been such a useful strategy for them they don't want to stop. They are still getting lucky with it.

Hi completely new to this conversation. Aren't M&S separate cubicles and staffed. What's the big concern with these changing rooms?

My last visit to M & S the changing rooms were staffed but not enclosed there was only a curtain to kerp you from view.

I am a regular M&S shopper, don't judge.

The last time I went it was to get my DD a swimsuit. She's eleven but size 10 women. It was a Saturday and so really busy, there were three first bra fittings. (My dd would rather die than ever do that). The girls were embarrassed but sort of "rite of passage" something that had to be done about it, the voices of the staff were gentle and kind and lots of motherly voices about "grown up" this and "woman" that.

I cannot imagine what having a male in that space would do to the girls, their mothers and the staff. It would be entirely inappropriate.

Hi completely new to this conversation. Aren't M&S separate cubicles and staffed. What's the big concern with these changing rooms?

So perfectly safe for a TIM to use the men's then.

We are told that TIM just want to get on with their lives, not draw attention to themselves or cause any problems for anyone else. We are saying that they are causing distress, and their reaction is - tough, we are going to go where we want regardless of what you feel and say.

Baroquehavoc. Good point, I totally agree.

And I hadn't considered what the pp said about young women having bra fittings.

If there start to be male people visible in those changing rooms and male voices audible then young girls will simply stop using them for things like bra fittings, and their mothers would remove them even if they were willing to do so. M&S would do well to remember who their customer base is.

If the changing rooms are staffed then the male ones should be as safe as the females ones, right? In which case transwomen can use them just fine. Unless the argument is that it's fine for women and girls to feel discomfort, but if transwomen do that's unacceptable.

Surely that's not your argument, is it?

So perfectly safe for a TIM to use the men's then.

Its not about safety it is about validation. It always is.
Thats why they scream misgendering is literal violence . They are so conviced they have passed that anyone who uses the correct prounouns is outing them therefore destroying their delusion.

The funny part of that is that if they actually did pass and someone called them a man everyone else would just be confused. Like if you or I were in a changing room tomorrow and some random was all "that's a man" - so what? Who would believe them? And the same would be true for a transwoman who genuinely did pass, which is the only scenario in which they could conceivably be outed.

If they sufficiently disguise themselves so that they 'genuinely pass' they wouldn't be called on it. Just because some men sufficiently disguise themselves doesn't mean we should let in the ones who don't

I agree, but TRAs always trot out the "but what about people who pass" argument. It's a red herring. If someone isn't visibly not the sex the space was designed for then nobody will say anything. The entire conversation is about what happens when visibly male people enter spaces for female people.

Angry not at tou

pratchet an effective ‘disguise’ would involve head down, doing absolutely nothing to draw attention to themselves or make women feel uncomfortable. This is always what is going to distinguish transsexuals from AGP’s and why I think TRA’s are all AGP’s.

I know! But, you know, for the benefit of the lurkers since that particular argument is dragged out over and over again...

And yeah, if someone can't "pass" behaviorally on an anonymous internet forum where nobody can see them then good luck irl.

I've known women invite husbands and boyfriends into the communal space to see them in potential purchases - it's definitely not single sex.

I've always seen them waiting out on the chairs the other side of the little desk, and the woman trying something on wanders out far enough to be seen, and the bloke slightly leans around to see whilst the assistant keeps an eye. That's how we do it when DP is trying on jeans too - there's some loud communication to warn the other blokes in their cubicles that a woman is about to be looking in their direction, DP comes towards me, does the bendy knee, yes, these jeans fit thing, then goes back to put his trousers on. Is that not how it works for everyone? It is for everyone I've seen in changing rooms!

Any male entering the bit by the cubicles is shooed straight out (and female in the mens)

What Rot Gibberty - the vast VAST majority of people fall into one of the two standard types. That includes most trans, who are perfectly healthy people of one type, not intersex. When something's true for 99% of people, and readily recognised without special equipment, it certainly isn't a value judgement.

Some TRAs argue that PCOS, which you need to be female to suffer from, is an intersex condition, so, you know, consider the source.

Because it probably wasn't a male body - just one with some male features

Like a penis, testicles, a Y chromosome, a prostate, a heavier jaw, larger hands and feet, and then at puberty a beard and a voice that breaks...you know, just a few things.