In reaction to the Government sex segregation Petition response, M&S are finally reconsidering their position on their sexist unsafe and undignified policy.

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I have had several discussions with M&S who were very much digging their heels in and putting male feelings ahead of sex segregation exemptions in the EA2010. I had another discussion with them today and they are finally looking at their policy again.

Please take action and message them your feminist concerns.

Further discussion www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

Including links to a trans woman who admitted to throwing clothes in an aggressive act, at female staff in a woman's changing room.

That's really disappointing. Also reminder to me I need to write. I was in
an m and s the other day queuing with bras to try on. Behind me was an old man waiting to try clothes on. Now he could of course been perfectly harmless but I felt really embarrassed and will not be going back there

That letter has a clear hint to get more women to write in complaining

We are continually reviewing it to ensure it is appropriate for the largest number of customers and your feedback is useful for us to do that

Excellent work.

Keep going.

My response,

Dear Emma

How about women and girls feeling comfortable and safe?

This looks like a copy and paste response.

As this issue gets bigger and more women understand what is happening M and S stand to lose their customer base.

I would not underestimate what women will do if they feel the safety of their children is in any way compromised. Boycotting your shop is the only response.

You have lost my custom and I will be emailing all my friends with your response and suggesting they do the same.

On 12 Jun 2018, at 08:22, M&S

Good morning
Thank you for taking the time to get in touch. I am sorry you have been left disappointed with our fitting room policy.
With over 30 million customers, we understand our responsibility to the Equalities Act 2010 and it is something we take seriously. We want to create a place where everyone – including customers and colleagues - feels included, and can be themselves.
To do this, we have to create a balance and we do feel our current policy helps us to achieve this.
Our customers are free to choose the Fitting Room they identify with and feel comfortable in, with respect to other customers' privacy.
This is because all of our fitting room cubicles have mirrors inside and lockable doors to ensure full customer privacy.
We are continually reviewing it to ensure it is appropriate for the largest number of customers and your feedback is useful for us to do that.
I’d like to thank you for taking the time to contact us and I do hope you can return to shopping with M&S with confidence in the future.

Kind regards

Emma Truss
Retail Customer Services
Your M&S Customer Service

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Registered office: Waterside House, 35 North Wharf Road, London, W2 1NW
Registered Number: 214436 (England and Wales)

I wonder if a concerted letter writing approach would work.

I think that M&S’s policy is indirect sex discrimination and harassment. It can safely using the sex exemptions disallow transwomen from opting in to sex segregated spaces.

it could design the entrance to changing rooms so that transwomen go through the women’s entrance but then have their own changing rooms to one side

That wouldn't work for at least two reasons Elletorro. Firstly the cost. Secondly TW want full access to women's spaces on a par with women. Nothing less will do. If they had any mind to be half reasonable we wouldn't be where we are now.

Emma Truss says all M&S changing rooms have lockable doors with mirrors inside: is this true? I seldom visit their changing room, not liking their clothing ranges these days, but thought I'd read here about ones with just curtains.

Survey time?

Ours has curtains

Costs are not a defence to an indirect discrimination claim.

Transwomen’s rights have to be in balance and don’t take precedence.

Transwomen’s rights have to be in balance and don’t take precedence
Yeah if only.
We have said for time now that a third space/unisex/gender neutral/whatever it's called would be a great compromise that hurts no one. Sadly this is called discrimination, and we are all TERFs for even thinking of it.

Ignore them. They are lampooning you.

Easier said than done I know.

Ignore them. They are lampooning you.

You may be right, I was always told in negotiations to ask for way more than actually wanted as a compromise. But every time we offer to help them claim their own space, to help fundraising for shelters etc, we are simply told to shut up or die in a fire, exclusionary britches blah blah

I get you with negotiating but really here M&S has to balance rights because to invoke the sex exemptions it has to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. It’s got to be moderate.

If we suggest a workable balance that keeps them on the right side of the law then there’s a chance they will implement it.

I was in an m and s the other day queuing with bras to try on. Behind me was an old man waiting to try clothes on.

Wait, so you were embarrassed because you were holding a bra and it was in front of an old man? Everyone being fully clothed and in public?

Is that not very immature? Is the 'old' significant here or an incidental detail? Was it Benny Hill?

You know the thing that is really extraordinary is we , women, just don’t get asked!!

Something that affects us and we don’t get asked!! We just get told.

How different could all of this been with open discussion and a willingness to take into account our views on something that deeply affects us in so many aspects of our lives. I’m talking about all aspects of self ID here, changing rooms, women’s spaces, sport etc, etc.

Labour being the worst offender in my book. Sorry gone off at bit of a tangent, but it just beggars belief.

Why don't you decide where other women's boundaries should be supermatchgame? You can mock them if you feel they are being prudish.

I'll get my 82 year old mother out for you. She'd be mortified in that situation. You can have a right old giggle at her.

Here - pop your big woke old bra on these

M&S hasn't replied to me yet. Since I take the opposite view that the status quo is fine, I wonder if I will get the same response?

Well I dread to think how she would cope with being served by a man behind the counter.

Some 82 year olds don't like seeing breastfeeding in public either. You do know there are women that do that in public don't you? In front of men even.

I assumed the poster meant that there was a man queuing up to go into the ladies' changing room to try on clothes.

Yes, waiting to go into a changing room holding a bra with a man standing behind you is a big deal...some men will be fantasising about the woman trying it on and thinking about it while he stands behind her, maybe hoping to be in the changing room next door to her. That's different from buying it and being served by a man although some would feel embarrassed by that.

Seems some people have no idea what sexual thoughts and fetishes men have.

I've had 2 replies from M&S now...both useless, just empty assurances without addressing the points I raised.

Wrote today and got my fob off response within about four hours. They obviously put a lot of thought into it. Here it is with mine below:
Dear Ms ...

Thank you for emailing Steve Rowe about our fitting room policy. I work in our Executive team and Steve has asked that I reply to you on his behalf.

I am so sorry to read how unhappy you are with our fitting room policy and I am grateful to you for sharing your concerns with Steve and our team.

Under the Equalities Act 2010, we take our responsibility to create a place where everyone - customer and colleagues - feels included, and can be themselves, seriously. Our customers are free to choose the Fitting Room they identify with and feel comfortable in, with respect to other customers' privacy.

We take the safety of our customer and colleagues extremely seriously and with regard to some of the points you made in your email, I assure you that if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence, the necessary action would be taken.

I really do hope this won't deter you from shopping at M&S, and on behalf of Steve, many thanks for getting in touch.

Kind regards

Name removed
Executive Team
Your M&S Customer

My email:
Subject: Changing room policy
Dear Marks and Spencer,

I am writing to you to express my concern and disappointment about your apparent policy regarding your changing rooms. I understand that you have said the customers may use the changing room which they prefer regardless of what actual sex they are.

You may feel that is this is lovely and inclusive but it is the very opposite and you are actually excluding many customers who would be very unhappy, intimidated and even traumatised to find a male body sharing changing areas with them (and of course many people are, as yet, unaware of your policy).

You may claim that your changing areas have privacy but many do not and a voyeur could very easily look over and under a curtain or door. There have been instances of males leaving hidden cameras in similar facilities and incidents of voyeurism leapt for Target in America when they introduced similar policies. I believe you have a duty of care to your customers here.

Also, of course, women like to exit the cubicles to use larger mirrors or show their companions the clothes they are trying – again a male in this area is unexpected and unwelcome.

You may say you are not allowing males in the female areas (or vice versa) as some men claim to be women but do you realise that the vast majority of trans identifying males (transwomen) actually retain their full male anatomy and so are men to most people. This may well be upsetting and ‘triggering’ for some people but it is the truth and the needs of a small vocal minority should not trump established needs of female bodied people. This is not trans exclusionary but, you would think, obvious protection of females.

It is a complex topic and there are many reasons why a person may become trans – one of them however is called autogynophlia which is very much about fetish and humiliating actual women. The other problem is that with this policy, any person with a dodgy intent, could walk in and claim to be the opposite sex and you would be leaving yourselves open to claims of transphobia if you then tried to eject them but are leaving women open to predatory behaviour if you allow self identification.

To be brief, as this is a complex topic, we must retain sex segregated spaces for reasons of safety and dignity. You will find that the Equality Act of 2010 allows this and sex is a protected characteristic whereas the rather woolly sounding gender is not. I quote:

Separate-sex and single-sex services

110.The Equality Act 2010 allows for the provision of separate-sex113 and single-sex services114 where this is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” (a form of words intended to require the application of an objective standard of justification). The Act also effectively permits service providers not to allow a trans person to access separate-sex or single-sex services—on a case-by-case basis, where exclusion is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”

I would argue that safeguarding female bodied customers is a legitimate aim. I don’t think anybody is expecting staff to be checking customers’ bodies over but a person presenting to you as a man or a woman should be shown the appropriate facilities – and quite simply if a person ‘passes’ as their chosen gender and is acting perfectly normally and legally, then nobody will notice and all will be well – this has operated for many years as a ‘courtesy’ system.

For those who are obviously the other sex or who are being belligerent about their ‘rights’ , one solution would be to have a third changing area for those who feel unable to use either the male or female facilities.

I hope you can see how important it is to protect your customers and ensure they feel comfortable in your stores (especially female bodied ones as they are much more at risk here).

I look forward to hearing your plans but sadly cannot longer shop in your store until this is resolved,

Kind regards

MARKSANDSPENCER.COM
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Marks and Spencer plc
Registered Office:
Waterside House
35 North Wharf Road
London
W2 1NW

Registered No. 214436 in England and Wales.

Telephone (020) 7935 4422
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www.marksandspencer.com

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Be sure to include the copy paste list of protected characteristics from the 2010 EA in you letters and emails.

Has M&S improved its clothing range this year? I haven't even bothered to look. I prefer a rummage through the rails for a one-off in TK Maxx.

Asda/George has now removed all the mirrors on the shop floor in the local store, so you have to go into the unisex changing rooms to find one. Three cubicles, locked doors, partitions must be well over 7' high.