Government response to the petition...

[LazyTuesdayAfternoon]

I don't know if there's a thread about this already, sorry if I've missed it.

What do people make of the response?

It seems quite proportionate to me but, as always, I guess the devil will be in the detail...

I posted a while back how the latest ministerial response to my letters re the GRA had gone further than earlier ones in acknowledging the problems amendments would produce. This GEO response goes even further - so a step in the right direction.

However, I am very wary of proposals that use phrases such as "case by case" "proportionate" etc. as they are subjective (a bit like reasonable doubt) and if it stands like that I can see the lawyers lining up on both sides of the debate.

We need a legal definition of the words woman/female that does not include trans. Nothing less will enable women to challenge trans people who seek validation by entering women's spaces. The loopholes are still there.

On another note, in a PM conversation with a journalist whose ear is firmly to the ground he believes letters have produced a shift in opinion, that we should continue that campaign and that Labour should be targeted as he spots some room for shift there too.

I do however, remain sceptical myself.

Yes I will too. It was on my boycott list. I've been going to Debs.

Oh good well make sure you scream really loudly if you see a trans woman in there.

A Debenhams spokesperson said: ‘We are sorry for any distress caused to the customer. Debenhams changing rooms are not gender specific.

Me too!

Absolutely me too.

Those who stood in the way of racial equality now look like racist bigots.
Those who stood in the way of women's rights now look like misogynists.
Those who stood in the way of LGB rights now look like homophobes.

Terrible comparison. We are not standing in the way of trans rights. We are standing up for women's rights. It is a positive position - not a negative one.

was about to spend a fair bit of money on the outfit but after being treated like a freak I threw the dress at her.’"

Narcissistic injury and rage.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3270549-In-reaction-to-the-Government-sex-segregation-Petition-response-M-S-are-finally-reconsidering-their-position-on-their-sexist-unsafe-and-undignified-policy?msgid=78451611#78451611

M&S contact details on the linked thread.

Threw the dress at her? What masculine behaviour.

Terrible comparison. We are not standing in the way of trans rights. We are standing up for women's rights. It is a positive position - not a negative one.

Can we infer from the statement that TRAs consider that women's rights to privacy and dignity and to be considered as a sex class with specific problems are in the way of what they want? I think so.

Firstly : Debenhams changing rooms are not gender specific

No changing rooms are gender specific. They are sex specific. Males with any gender gonin the males, females of any gender go in the females.

Now to read back.

Biologyisreal: 'case by case'

The government's LGBT Head of Equalities Ollie Entwistle has specifically said (quote) 'the bar will be set high'.

An example he gave was if a woman was in a refuge and an abusive partner who was trans (or quote lesbian) sought entry, they would be refused.

That is an extraordinarily high bar, and would apply equally to a woman, a lesbian, as he noted.

That makes an absolute mockery of the Equality Act provision.

Those who stood in the way of racial equality now look like racist bigots.
Those who stood in the way of women's rights now look like misogynists.
Those who stood in the way of LGB rights now look like homophobes.

Now the homophobes and misogynists and racists have joined forces to roll back woemn's rights, transition away the Gays and Lesbians, and blame the brown people for it.

Just as a reminder here is what Stonewall are saying:

www.stonewall.org.uk/gender-recognition-act

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans#trans-people-britain

This is what the LGBT+ LibDem twitter page is saying:
twitter.com/LGBTLD/status/1004079662325272576

"Once again, there seems to be lots of confusion about the Gender Recognition Act, the Equality Act and so-called “Self ID”. It’s time for another Lib Dem primer. Best put the kettle on and settle in.

Here we go...." continues

LGBT+LibDem thread concludes

We need to post this paragraph everywhere.

Pratchet where is that Ollie Entwistle quote from?

According to Twitter he's head of LGBT policy team in the Government Equalities Office. His web link goes to Civil Service LGBT+ network. His tweets are protected.

He's obviously influential but I'm not convinced his interpretation of the law holds much weight. We need some case law.

That feed is just Sarah Brown isn't it?

He said it on Monday at a trans Equality forum.

There are apparently four people who tweet for the LGBT+LibDeb group

Recent discussion:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3263172-Andrew-Gilligan-Latest-bullying-transgender-complaint-swiftly-rejected-by-parliamentary-standards-committee

PencilsInSpace
Re Ollie Entwhistle

Thread re the policy forum on Monday.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents

I wouldn't place too much weight on it then. It's not written policy, even if it's minuted.

Great tweet on the twittery thing;

In 2004, UK Parliament was told that Gender Recognition Bill covered only tiny minority: "an estimated 5,000 people".
Now govt claims the system "is not working well for the people it is designed for. Only 4,850 GRCs have been issued".
IT IS WORKING EXACTLY AS PARLIAMENT INTENDED

twitter.com/MrHenryWimbush/status/1004493916907999232

Can anyone explain to me the contradicting points that always come up when pro self ID people discuss it

1. Nothing will change except for people being able to get new birth certs which no one really uses so it doesn't even matter and will have no impact on anyone or anything

1. This is super important and the process must be streamlined immediately

Summary and background for 2004 GRA
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/notes/division/2

Summary and Background for EA 2010
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/2/1
"11.The Act brings together and re-states all the enactments listed in paragraph 4 above and a number of other related provisions. It will harmonise existing provisions to give a single approach where appropriate. Most of the existing legislation will be repealed. The Equality Act 2006 will remain in force (as amended by the Act) so far as it relates to the constitution and operation of the Equality and Human Rights Commission; as will the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, so far as it relates to Northern Ireland."

Having repealed laws that previously provided sex protections the next step is to replace all references to sex with gender while maintaining the special additional carte blanche rights granted to transgender identified people.