Government response to the petition...

[LazyTuesdayAfternoon]

I don't know if there's a thread about this already, sorry if I've missed it.

What do people make of the response?

It seems quite proportionate to me but, as always, I guess the devil will be in the detail...

So why are we not campaigning to get the definitions of women front and centre in law. What crime do we need to commit to do that? I am only half joking.

We need something that defines woman as biologically born woman.

At the moment our birth certificates are the best we have to show what sex we were biologically born. If people can change the sex on their birth certificate, it is more than just an admin change to make all their documents match, it shows they were born male or female.

It's not a perfect response and there are loopholes BUT the sentiment and intention of the piece is clearly a very significant rowing back from where we were when Miller's report was published.

Well done to all groups and individuals.

It probably means that we are going to have to change our campaigning tactics away from the self ID stunts (brilliant and effective as they have been) and on to issues of child transing and the nonsense that is being fed into schools by ofsted approved organisations. As well as the difference between sex and gender.

A copy of this government response and a critique of the problematic issues it raises needs to be sent to individual MPs. No need to wait for the consultation to start educating them.

It seems that self ID has just been dealt a nearly mortal blow.

Fucking well done all!

As for the case-by-case thing, I didn't necessarily read it as referring to individual trans people, but (in the context where it was mentioned) as potentially also referring to e.g. a specific service provider or scenario.

Agreed, that is how I read it.

I was slightly reassured to see it explicitly stated that single sex spaces will be protected. But I don't think that will stop the TRAs continuing their assault on our spaces. We need explicit reassurance that no one who protects a single sex space - refuge managers who refuse to allow men in, prison governors who insist on biologically female inmates, swimming pool managers with the guts to ask ask penis owners to leave women's changing rooms - will not be prosecuted for doing so.

I also agree that we need to get some definitions crystal clear and reclaim the word women.

Then no one will ever be able to say transwomen are women.

It probably means that we are going to have to change our campaigning tactics away from the self ID stunts (brilliant and effective as they have been) and on to issues of child transing and the nonsense that is being fed into schools by ofsted approved organisations. As well as the difference between sex and gender.

Totally agree. When I saw TransgenderTrend's schools pack I thought that at last there was some sanity to counteract the crap that Mermaids, Allsorts and GIRES have been managing to get into schools. It's unbelievable that something which has been properly researched and checked for legal compliance is being questioned, when Mermaids and the rest of them are given taxpayers money and produce material which misinforms schools about the law and encourages dangerous practices.

So we need three people to take leadership of three campaigns, and a team to help them?

1. M&S crowd fund class action from men and women, press and legal challenge.

2. Girl Guides class action from girls and parents, crowd fund, press and legal challenge.

3. Pick a girls school, class action from students and parents, crowd funding, press and legal challenge.

Campaign to lobby the local, national press and every MP.

Visit your MP, encourage others to visit their MP, demand that the law reclaims "woman" and it mean biological adult human female.

I didn’t want to open the email this morning when I saw it- was seriously worried about what the response was going to be, but I was really surprised at the response, it seems that the government is listening now, it’s very telling that it doesn’t say transwomen are women now STFU (to paraphrase a pp!) which i imagine it would have done a year ago!

My heartfelt thanks to everyone who has been campaigning around this - you are amazing !

The TRAs are going to ramp up there activism now there is no doubt- which is going to peak trans a whole lot more people! Let the world see them for who they really are.

I know I am in the minority as a Christian Feminist, to me this attack on "woman" isn't just a feminist human rights issue for me, it's also an attack on my religion with the state enforcement of forcing me to tell lies under oath on a bible in court (misgendering laws) if a TRA assaulted me, and so forth along with everything else.

Regarding this suggested new protected characteristic of being a biological female -

I’d happily pay admin fees, provide medical evidence, etc, to have a piece of ID that states this.

If the alternative is having fewer rights than a Cornish pasty...

My understanding is that this petition response will have come from civil servants in the relevant department: that doesn't necessarily mean that ministers agree with or even have had sight of this response, so it may be yet another case of civil servants trying to put forward a reasoned and reasonable perspective that can in the end be overruled by ministers. So it's important to keep lobbying politicians and getting the GC argument out in the media before the legislation is drafted.

Fuck TIM
Fuck feminists
Fuck the transphobic hate you pump out if your hoohas

I hope no one is still under the impression that this poster is who they say they are, here to post in good faith and should be taken seriously.

Self ID is still on the agenda and very much how the Government seems to want things to be, going by the guidance notes for the Equality Act.

Do not read this as being a rejection of Self ID, they are just saying that it isn't a forgone conclusion.

"We have been clear since announcing our intention to consult on the GRA that we will ask about how we can make the process of applying for a Gender Recognition Certificate less bureaucratic and intrusive for trans people. That does not necessarily mean we are proposing self-declaration of gender." But it still might.

And the organisation cannot ask if people have a GRC
Yes it can. But if you have a need to know someone's legal gender then it is good practice to ask for a birth certificate instead.

But in these cases (to identify if someone was born a man) you want to know their birth sex. Not their “legal gender”. Because it doesn’t tell you what you need to know if you are a women-only refuge etc. You shouldn’t be able to change a birth certificate at all, in my opinion. It’s a record made at your birth of what was observed and what your “identity” was according to your parents - name etc. At least asking for a GRC avoids the sensitive issue if the organisation finding out your “dead name” from a birth certificate etc.

The legislation is a bit if a nonsense.

I would like to be a Cornish pasty, please.

Nevertheless, it’s good that the response was so measured. I look forward to the “open consultation”.

We have been clear since announcing our intention to consult on the GRA that we will ask about how we can make the process of applying for a Gender Recognition Certificate less bureaucratic and intrusive for trans people. That does not necessarily mean we are proposing self-declaration of gender.

This is interesting. Theresa May sounded far more definite when , We have set out plans to reform the Gender Recognition Act, streamlining and demedicalising the process for changing gender because being trans is not an illness and it shouldn't be treated as such.

The word 'demedicalising' doesn't appear in this response. I am hoping this is significant.

We are clear that we have no intention of amending the Equality Act 2010, the legislation that allows for single sex spaces. Any GRA reform will not change the protected characteristics in the Equality Act nor the exceptions under the Equality Act that allow provision for single and separate sex spaces.

Worth remembering that governments only last a few years. These recommendations are there in the trans equality report. We know Labour want to change the EA, some tories do too - Maria Miller for a start. Stonewall are already just circumventing the law and making up the protected characteristics as they go along while implying it's not legal to exclude trans people from separate sex spaces. That needs challenging.

The Government does not intend to change the safeguarding processes that are currently used in refuges and healthcare services. Providers of women-only services can continue to provide services in a different way, or even not provide services to trans individuals, provided it is objectively justified on a case-by-case basis. The same can be said about toilets, changing rooms or single sex activities. Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.

As others have said, we are left with unclear definitions of 'case-by-case', 'proportionate', 'legitimate' and 'sex'.

Also what BarrackerBarmer said:

The rights of the entire female population of the UK - 33 million - to be
1. recognised in law as biologically female
2. acknowledged as fundamentally, permanently and irrevocably different from males
3. afforded the right to spaces in the absence of all males
4. acknowledged as the biological group for which all such rights were designated

those rights - the entirety of ALL rights for ALL females- now reside in a tiny little exemption clause buried within a piece of legislation called the Equality Act 2010 which must be
a. invoked on a case by case basis (and yet currently is not)
b. justified to men in each of those cases.

That clause, that little exemption that says FEMALES have rights that apply to us and to us alone, is the ONLY part of the law where our actual rights remain.

Responses from some TRAs with active Twitter

I think yall are missing something. A huge number of young people are trans-identifying. Maybe a lot won't ultimately fully transition but they are learning first hand how anti-trans many women's groups have become. When those children become voters, some in time for the next General Election, the support for trans-positive changes to the law going to skyrocket. Parties wanting to attract young voters will have to deal with the fact that many of them will have had trans friends and will want to see them protected. I know people are saying we have reached peak trans, but it's entirely the opposite that think.

Do you think they agree with your views about women who want female nurses to carry out smear tests Gibbert?

*The rights of the entire female population of the UK - 33 million - to be

1. recognised in law as biologically female
2. acknowledged as fundamentally, permanently and irrevocably different from males
3. afforded the right to spaces in the absence of all males
4. acknowledged as the biological group for which all such rights were designated*

This, a million times over. I have been lurking for a long time - I do not feel eloquent enough to join in with a lot of the debate. However, this sums it up for me - especially recognised in law as biologically female. It seems to me that this is what it all comes back to.

A huge number of young people are trans-identifying. Maybe a lot won't ultimately fully transition

And hopefully some of the older "non binary" social contagion ones will have got over their fascinating selves and grown up a bit by that point. We shall see, I guess. In the meantime feminists will keep on raising awareness and centring women and women's rights.

Wanting privacy safety and dignity for women and for everyone's needs to be considered is obviously not anti-trans Gibberty Of course trans rights are important. There needs to be a constructive conversation about how to make this work for everyone.

Some TRAs have presented the arguments in a very simplified and antagonistic way and the wider impact has effectively been hidden. That's changing now and the debate will shine more and more light on this.

The vast majority across ALL ages are against self-Id as being workable according to polls. The vast majority also believe trans people should live free of discrimination.

Lots of people who have been unquestionably supporting campaigns by places like Stonewall et al slowly realise there is more to the story.

It's time for honest, inclusive and compassionate discussion of the rights of all involved for anyone who wants popular or political support for their position I'm afraid.

Fibbertgibbert - why are huge numbers of young people transing?? And the type of transing they intend ie hair makeup, acting, pronouns - is it worthy of special protections and trampling on womens rights, i mean when a minority of kids were goths, should everyone else have been forced to be called non goths or be labelled gothphobic if they didnt use their goth name? These kids need to be educated that breaking out of the confines of gender conformity /"stereotyped behaviour- doesnt mean u are trans anything..being trans is a rare thing