Government response to the petition...

[LazyTuesdayAfternoon]

I don't know if there's a thread about this already, sorry if I've missed it.

What do people make of the response?

It seems quite proportionate to me but, as always, I guess the devil will be in the detail...

I am wondering how representative Gibb's views are?

With regards a woman requesting a female nurse for intimate gynaecological examination & being unwilling to let a transsexual nurse do the smear test.

GibbertyFlibberty:
"If a white patient insisted she wouldn't be treated by a black nurse the patient would be being racist and the hospital would be in their rights not to treat her. Exactly the same if a patient objects to a trans nurse"

cf inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

Sporadic Spartacus - I LOVE that soundbite - "women have fewer rights than a Cornish Pasty"

The mail would love a picture of Amy in her Mankini, with a sad face looking at a Cornish pasty.

"recognised in law as biologically female"

Are you really sure that would be a good thing. A lot of femists are telling young trans people that they don't need medical intervention to be treated as male or female. Start introducing biological tests and suddenly that looks even more hollow so people will start rushing ever faster to get medical treatment in order to meet your new biological definition.

These kids need to be educated that breaking out of the confines of gender conformity /"stereotyped behaviour- doesnt mean u are trans anything..being trans is a rare thing

You can see from Gibbert's post why transactivists have a vested interest in that not happening.

Quite revealing really. It's great when people tell you who they are.

Hmmm...I'm cautiously optimistic, actually. It's a definite backing slowly away from the crap Maria Miller was spouting a year ago.

Plus - both the main political parties exist pretty much in order to keep on existing these days, as far as I can see.

The oxygen of publicity has made it increasingly obvious that TIMs in women's spaces is NOT something the electorate want.

Start introducing biological tests and suddenly that looks even more hollow so people will start rushing ever faster to get medical treatment in order to meet your new biological definition.

@Gibberty looking forward to you explaining how these people will change their DNA

I also wonder how representative Gibb's opinions are with regards Vancouver Rape Relief? It seems Morgane Oger who is running for mayor may share them:

"There is much to dislike about VRR. In fact, I think it is an organisation with odious views"

GibbertyFlibbert:
"If a white patient insisted she wouldn't be treated by a black nurse the patient would be being racist and the hospital would be in their rights not to treat her. Exactly the same if a patient objects to a trans nurse"

analogy not quite right though is it? racism is about prejudice and power so yes the white woman in your example was racist.

sexism is about prejudice and power too. men have the power in our society not women. a woman who did not want to be intimately examined by a trans man (for clarity that is a female who now identifies as a man) could conceivably be transphobic.

however it is more than that, it is about consent. why shouldn't men and women be able to exercise consent over who touches their genitalia in non emergency medical situations? it is not the transness that people are objecting to. it is the original sex and the fact that a lot of trans women keep their penises and the fact that most people do not believe it is possible to change sex.

"why are huge numbers of young people transing?? And the type of transing they intend ie hair makeup, acting, pronouns - is it worthy of special protections and trampling on womens rights, i mean when a minority of kids were goths, should everyone else have been forced to be called non goths or be labelled gothphobic if they didnt use their goth name? These kids need to be educated that breaking out of the confines of gender conformity /"stereotyped behaviour- doesnt mean u are trans anything..being trans is a rare thing"

You are missing the point.

We are reaching a point at which perhaps most of that generation will have known someone trans-identifying. They will be used to people being male without having a penis, or female with one because most trans-people of that age haven't medically transitioned. For a very large number of young people it is normalising the things some feminists are trying to portray as abnormal. The country is on the brink, I think, of becoming vastly more trans-positive especially to people who haven't had surgery.

We saw this 40 years ago. Suddenly it was OK to be lesbian. So many came out as lesbian. They didn't in the end all stay as lesbian but suddenly a lot of people understood it and stopped being frightened of lesbianism. So since the we have seen an explosion in support for things like same sex marriages. All I am predicting is that the next wave of social enlightenment will be for trans people, especially those who decide not to have surgery. Self-ID is just the tip of the iceberg of the trans-positive changes that generation are going to push through. The EA will change from gender reassignment to gender identity. The exemptions will be removed etc

Start introducing biological tests and suddenly that looks even more hollow so people will start rushing ever faster to get medical treatment in order to meet your new biological definition.

So? If males want to transition fully and remove their penis in order to identify as a woman with the added rights of accessing biological female space, then they should go through that process. Can't imagine trans activists would want to take it that far though, or anyone simply doing it on a whim, but that's their choice.

The country is on the brink, I think, of becoming vastly more trans-positive especially to people who haven't had surgery.

But it's not is it. Otherwise this debate wouldn't be going on online and in the real world. Plenty of people object to it when it impacts on biological women. People can do what they want, dress how they want. Whatever. Live and let live as long as it doesn't cause harm and distress to others. But it doesn't mean you get to appropriate biological women's rights simply for feeling like a woman.

Quite revealing really. It's great when people tell you who they are.

It really is. Transactivism is one great big QED. It demonstrates the validity of every single feminist objection and doesn't even know it's doing it.

The country is on the brink, I think, of becoming vastly more trans-positive especially to people who haven't had surgery.

Or, more accurately:

The country is on the brink, I think, of becoming vastly more trans-AWARE especially to people who haven't had surgery. And it's not going to like what it sees.

Study your social history.

Those who stood in the way of racial equality now look like racist bigots.
Those who stood in the way of women's rights now look like misogynists.
Those who stood in the way of LGB rights now look like homophobes.

In all cases, there has been a socially conservative group which has tried to stand in the way. It hasn't worked.

The next area of social enlightenment bubbling through is trans rights. Why should the outcome be any different?

@GibbertyFlibbert fortunately, I think you are wrong. I think common sense will return. And men can be men in dresses if they want to be. And young girls can be just that.

And when you ask for a female health care provider, you'll get one.

But for currently trans identifying people I don't think the picture will be bleak. It will be good. Rather than trying to enshrine into law things which are clearly not true, why not fight for a future where are all are valued, all are protected.

"But it's not is it. Otherwise this debate wouldn't be going on online and in the real world. Plenty of people object to it when it impacts on biological women. People can do what they want, dress how they want. Whatever. Live and let live as long as it doesn't cause harm and distress to others. But it doesn't mean you get to appropriate biological women's rights simply for feeling like a woman."

It's a generational thing. People were socially-conditioned to be anti-trans. Even ten years ago press coverage was almost all sensationalist and negative. That is changing. There are now trans celebrities, pop singers, models, politicians, sports personalities. It takes time for those changes to have an effect but the wave is coming.

I believe the majority of people have a shared expectation of what a single-sex space or service is.

If this definition is to be changed then all stakeholders in society should be aware of this and able to consider it and contribute.

This can't be restricted to people from certain age group/ identity / educational experience / user of certain social media sites/ members of political groups etc.

To do so is to disenfranchise others.

Those who stood in the way of women's rights now look like misogynists.

Indeed. And that, my dear is exactly what many trans activists are. Glad you can see that now.

That was in response to your post at Today 10:19 @ GibbertyFlibbert.

And my response to Study your social history...

Some trans ideology is misogynistic (the male HCP not listening to a woman's choices for example, the reinforcing of gender which is harmful to women and girls and is contributing to the ROGD of young women and girls).

Plus some of the trans ideology is also homophobic.

"Why should the outcome be any different?"

Because racial equality, female liberation etc did not require a denial of biology, nor has it required children and adults to have life altering surgery and be on hormones for life.

These things may be necessary for a tiny number of people.

Those who only socially transition may well find a gender non-confirming future is actually more freeing.

But either way any ideology that sweeps away the rights and concerns of half the population is not the future.

It's a generational thing. People were socially-conditioned to be anti-trans

You'll find that a great number of women being targetted and smeared by TRAs have a long history of standing up against inequality.

Your advice to 'study your social history' is something we can definitely agree on.

Perhaps start with Linda Bellos?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237264-Linda-Bellos-arrested-Title-edited-by-MNHQ-to-make-clear-that-she-was-in-fact-interviewed-under-caution

I actually think this government will fall in the next week or so.

Labour is a mess in general, over this and Brexit.

I can see a leadership challenge on May and possibly Corbyn, then a General election. I can't see either getting a strong government again.

I guess we will have to press for a new manifesto promise to strengthen the word "woman" in law, to mean biological Adult human female then for better law on spaces and services to be sex segregated.

The idea that middle aged men promoting their sex fetish are ahead of the curve on social change is rather laughable flib gibb.