Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

[CornishPasty82]

Hey, Been meaning to post here for a while. I’ce been reading a few of the threads on here lately and I’m wondering - Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights? I would like to think it is but reading on here it seems many people think it isn’t?

I do understand some of the issues with “self ID” (ie people with penises in women’s prisons, shelters, etc), but then again - How many women in prisons have been sexually assaulted by trans men? Is this actually a real problem? (Not goading! Genuinely interested in the facts/people’s viewpoints).

I have lots of fabulous friends and a husband (all feminists😀) who raise their eyebrows and think I’m a transphobe for talking about some of the issues with “self ID” so I’m keen to inform myself more.

I’m interested to here from people with all different view points, and I’m especially interested to see actual data/facts on cases where self ID has resulted in violence against women (or not).

Hope it’s okay to post this, and thanks in advance🙂

We shouldn't be focusing on the victims FermatsTheorem as they are not to blame for that crime! We should be focusing on the rapists and why they raped (and how they raped if they are women, considering you require a penis to rape) and how we can eradicate rape culture

Of course the victims matter. But the sex of the perpetrators matters very, very much.

We know that 98% of imprisoned sex offenders are male - so we need to tackle the problem of male sexual violence, so we need to be able to talk about male-bodied individuals.

We know that most women in prison are in prison for non-violent offences, and many of them (a much higher percentage than the female population as a whole) are survivors of sexual violence, domestic violence and child sexual abuse. We need to make sure that male-bodied individuals are not put into prison with this population of immensely vulnerable women.

My bottom line is that if you have used your penis to rape a woman, you have chosen your gender. You are, and will forever remain male. You made your choice, right there, right then, when you committed an act of sexual violence using your male genitalia.

The whole point, surely, is that it does not matter. What matters is that there were six rape victims and they should be the focus of our attention

No you are wrong. It matters, It matters a lot. To be clear that takes none of our concern away from the victims.

I think you're a bit confused here. Mumsnet is a private company, and it is up to MN's owners to set the rules of discourse on this site. Justine has said that she's in favour of free speech.

No, private companies providing services are subject to the Equality Act. Right now, Mumsnet is a rotten place for those with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. That has to change.

Sorry! should have bolded GibbertyFlibbert in my PP! (hadn't C+P properly!)

The whole point, surely, is that it does not matter. What matters is that there were six rape victims and they should be the focus of our attention.

No. Because if they were committed by males - people with XY chromosomes and penises - then there is good reason to keep males - people with XY chromosomes and penises - out of women's/female safe spaces.

If they were committed by females - people with XX chromosomes and vulvas and vaginas - then we need to understand how and why they were involved in a crime that requires a penis.

(Flooer - are you confusing me with Flibberty? I would never, ever say that we shouldn't be focusing on the sex of the perpetrator).

@GibbertyFlibbert but surely a GRC identifies a change of gender, not a change of sex?

(FermatsTheorem yes I did, already apologised for my C+P error! Sorry again)

"We know that most women in prison are in prison for non-violent offences, and many of them (a much higher percentage than the female population as a whole) are survivors of sexual violence, domestic violence and child sexual abuse. We need to make sure that male-bodied individuals are not put into prison with this population of immensely vulnerable women."

Then all sex offenders should be in separate prisons.

S9 of the Gender Recognition Act read, emphasis added

"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).
(2)Subsection (1) does not affect things done, or events occurring, before the certificate is issued; but it does operate for the interpretation of enactments passed, and instruments and other documents made, before the certificate is issued (as well as those passed or made afterwards).
(3)Subsection (1) is subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation."

And it has to include sex under the European Convention on Human Rights the the case law of the European Court of Human Rights. Those who deny it are denying human rights.

And this attempt to paint trans people as rapists is just as ugly.

I have not seen that. I have seen people saying it appears 'transwomen' (especially given this term goes for crossdressers and such too) are just as likely as males to commit violence. Thats not the same as saying transpeople are rapists. No more than acknowledging that male people commit near all violence means you are saying every male is violent. NAMALT and NATWALT disclaimer.

And this attempt to paint trans people as rapists is just as ugly

Who is painting transpeople as rapists?

All people are asking is how 6 women were able to be convicted of rape when rape requires a penis.

cross-posted with you Floeer! Friendly and slice of cake?

I wonder what percentage of TIM have a GRC?

Then all sex offenders should be in separate prisons.

Well, maybe.

But, within those separate prisons, female bodied people would need to be kept away from male bodied people to prevent the male bodied people from further raping the female bodied people. Wouldn't they?

kittie I didn’t know Terf was offensive:-) please let me know how I should addresa this group of people politely:-)

ooo I'll take a slice of carrot cake please FermatsTheorem

Anyway back to the debate going on....

Just because the Gender Recognition Act or any piece of legislation states someone can become the opposite sex doesn't mean it is factually or biologically possible. We need to ensure we can hold open discussions and debates about the law otherwise we will enter a dictatorship or a complete censorship state

No. The argument being presented here yet again is that some transwomen have committed rape so that all transwomen should be regarded as risks to women and not allowed in women's spaces. That stirring up hatred against trans women by portraying them as straight men and sexual predators. That's a totally unacceptable line of argument

No. the argument being presented here yet again is that the majority of sexual offences are committed by men and TIMs are not excluded from that pattern.

"Just because the Gender Recognition Act or any piece of legislation states someone can become the opposite sex doesn't mean it is factually or biologically possible. We need to ensure we can hold open discussions and debates about the law otherwise we will enter a dictatorship or a complete censorship state"

By all means argue that the law should be changed. That is your right. But do it without denying the gender and sex of those with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Their sex is legally just as valid as yours.

I'm not sure there is a collective word for 'people who take the current trans agenda with some scepticism, nuanced views and a large pinch of salt', Cornish.

Gibberty: The argument being presented here yet again is that some males have committed rape so that all males should be regarded as risks to women and not allowed in women's spaces, surely - unless or until there is reason to change this well-established precaution.

No. The argument being presented here yet again is that some transwomen have committed rape so that all transwomen should be regarded as risks to women and not allowed in women's spaces. Well, we don't put ALL men in the same prison as women for the same reason...

That stirring up hatred against trans women by portraying them as straight men and sexual predators. No, it acknowledges they have the same propensity for violence and sexual predation as men.

That's a totally unacceptable line of argument Or it is the logical thing to do!

We have sex segregation, in part, because some male people rape and sexually assaulted women and girls. I don't understand why a subset of males think that the segregation doesn't apply to them.