Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

[CornishPasty82]

Hey, Been meaning to post here for a while. I’ce been reading a few of the threads on here lately and I’m wondering - Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights? I would like to think it is but reading on here it seems many people think it isn’t?

I do understand some of the issues with “self ID” (ie people with penises in women’s prisons, shelters, etc), but then again - How many women in prisons have been sexually assaulted by trans men? Is this actually a real problem? (Not goading! Genuinely interested in the facts/people’s viewpoints).

I have lots of fabulous friends and a husband (all feminists😀) who raise their eyebrows and think I’m a transphobe for talking about some of the issues with “self ID” so I’m keen to inform myself more.

I’m interested to here from people with all different view points, and I’m especially interested to see actual data/facts on cases where self ID has resulted in violence against women (or not).

Hope it’s okay to post this, and thanks in advance🙂

Once again, TIM is a term of abuse and should not be used in a public space like this.

Once again, TIM is a factually accurate descriptor and stop policing women's language.

It's all very well saying 'there is no evidence that it is problematic', provided you also make it possible to collect and present the relevant evidence either way.

GibbertyFlibbert
What is the purpose of self-ID? Who do you think it will have an effect on?

and is intended to trigger gender dysphoria.

I realize that narcissists find this hard to grasp, but the vast majority of the time when other people are speaking they are trying to communicate ideas to others and are not focused on trying to do anything at all to you.

It denies legal gender / sex of some women and is intended to trigger gender dysphoria.

It's not intended to trigger anything.

It's a linguistic device that enables people to distinguish between biological females and males in order to facilitate clear communication and avoid confusion.

Crone I would also like that answered

Expecting women not to differentiate between male and female on FWR, is nothing to do with 'triggers', it's everything to do with control.

Then prove it and use terms which do not deny the legal sex of people like my partner. Women or trans people are suitable terms. TIM is not.

And why does nobody realise we already have self-ID? Under European Union legislation, which will be reaffirmed in the Brexit Bill, we already recognise as men / women (as the case may be) whose gender / sex was recognised in countries like Ireland and Malta. The scaremongering is unnecessary since self-ID has been here for several years

Gibberty which countries already have self ID? And may I ask, how is it possible to assess whether this has caused any problems if those people are now registered as female and therefore are presumably included in female crime statistics?

As for TIM or other terminology... I really don’t understand why you would want to address or describe someone using a term that upsets them. If TIM is upsetting, just use a different (preferred) term! It has very little to do with control and is to do with kindness and decency. There are plenty of terms women don’t like to be called, and equally we can repectfully ask that people don’t use them.

I find it hard to see how trans and terfs (and everyone else) are ever going to find common ground if people can’t even extend each other the curtesy of using non-offensive terminology.

Someone said the word TiM is decriptive, not offensive, but so is the word “cunt”, yet many women still don’t like it to be used. Let’s try and respect each other.

Sorry gibberty, cross post!

www.petertatchellfoundation.org/gender-recognition-act-time-for-reform/

Using TIM to that person would be unkind. Using it on a general discussion board, though? That seems more to be to avoid the confusion that arises when people don't always know if transwoman means male or female-born. I did wonder which way round you were using it when you said 'or 4th, for trans women' above.

They are trans identified males though.

I think transwoman is abusive personally. Abusive to me.

There are plenty of terms women don’t like to be called

Cis being one of them!

I remember an Irish friend of mine once saying "The problem is that there is no neutral language. As soon as you call a certain town in Northern Ireland 'Derry' or 'Londonderry' you've picked a side."

The same is true to some extent here. The game plan for the transactivist side is to completely re-write language so it is no longer possible to discuss biology (in connection with issues such as reporting crime statistics, allowing women to congregate based on sex, etc.) The game plan for the gender critical side is to resist this re-writing of language.

Take for example the 6 women convicted of rape last year in the UK. Gender critical feminists want an answer to the question "how many of these rapists were in possession of a penis, and how many were be-vulvaed individuals convicted under common purpose?" The transactivist side want to prevent the question even being asked by neutering language to the extent where it's not even possible to formulate the question.

It's very simple. Leaving aside the offence, denying the sex of people with GRCs but not those without is direct discrimination under the Equality Act. If you want to do that in private or in a campaign group that does not matter, but Mumsnet is a service open to the public and cannot allow discrimination. So Mumsnet needs to be removing all those posts. I have reported the entire thread.

" Mumsnet is a service open to the public"

I think you're a bit confused here. Mumsnet is a private company, and it is up to MN's owners to set the rules of discourse on this site. Justine has said that she's in favour of free speech.

FermatsTheorem That is a great way to explain what is going on with language here. (Isn't the attempt at neutral to call that town "Derry Londonderry" ? So maybe we should be saying TIM Woman ?)

"Take for example the 6 women convicted of rape last year in the UK. Gender critical feminists want an answer to the question "how many of these rapists were in possession of a penis, and how many were be-vulvaed individuals convicted under common purpose?" The transactivist side want to prevent the question even being asked by neutering language to the extent where it's not even possible to formulate the question."

The whole point, surely, is that it does not matter. What matters is that there were six rape victims and they should be the focus of our attention.

Hmmmmm.

Cornish, are you seriously saying that TIM is offensive, while casually using TERF as the opposite of trans?

More hmmmmm.

The whole point, surely, is that it does not matter.

It does matter, it matters a lot.

No, it matters when 6 raped women were forced to call their attacker 'she' in court.

We know that racists in the USA point to how many more black people are in jail than white people to paint black people as criminals. It is racism to think like that, talk like that. Disgusting. And this attempt to paint trans people as rapists is just as ugly.