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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Study find trans kids thrive after early transition

362 replies

Wakame · 04/06/2018 12:46

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

A study has found that young adults who transitioned in childhood through puberty suppression and cross sex hormones are thriving. Here's an excerpt:

"After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being."

It's a small study, but of course, when the results are so unambiguous, they become statistically significant even with smaller studies. You can of course counter this study with more science - just find a larger study that shows the opposite.

OP posts:
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UpstartCrow · 04/06/2018 16:10

A belief that puberty is only about developing secondary sexual characteristics explains the statement about 'natural' puberty.

But puberty is not all about looks, unless you view it through the lens of the male gaze.

gendercritter · 04/06/2018 16:11

I am going to propose that no one else answers this thread ... Wakame is aiming to derail a Feminist Chat board... has done it before and is doing it again....Really great that Bowl has pasted one cogent response - Let's not add any more

I think it was useful to reply on this thread but generally I agree with this poster. They are going to continually post studies to divert peoples' energy and time. This isn't someone interested in debate. None of the studies posted by them have been robust or said very much of any use. We all know some people with gender dysphoria are helped by transitioning. The op seems to be under the impression we hate all transpeople and want to eradicate them which is completely false.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/06/2018 16:13

I'm actually very grateful for Wakame posting all of these studies. It is very useful to see them thoroughly debunked by knowledgeable people, and helps give me the tools to critically analyse these things when I see them.

sleepingdragons · 04/06/2018 16:13

But puberty is not all about looks

One of the things it's about is brain development, maturing into an adult. What happens if you stunt that, does anyone know?

This is the one that concerns me most. Well that and sterility, losing the ability to breast feed and a functional sex life.

(The answer, for avoidance of doubt is no, no one knows how Lupron affects the brains of trans kids, no proper trials have been done).

gendercritter · 04/06/2018 16:14

It is incorrect to say it's an issue because there's no science on this at present

Gah, I made a typo. That should say ' it's not an issue'

UpstartCrow · 04/06/2018 16:15

sleepingdragons I asked on the first page and just got a flippant non answer.

GenderApostate · 04/06/2018 16:16

There are NO studies of Lupron used on children because it is used off label.
There are however 20,000 or so Women in the US severely damaged by Lupron given for premature puberty, there are various support groups for them.

sleepingdragons · 04/06/2018 16:18

They are going to continually post studies to divert peoples' energy and time

I don't this this is a waste of time. I'm out there talking with people about trans and women's rights issues, on social media and in real life, as I suspect are a lot of other people here.

It's really useful to hear about these studies for the first time here, so we can google and spend time considering it, not to have to think on the fly without google at hand.

There are a bunch of sealions about, sure but I don't think posting studies really falls into that category. I find it genuinely, really useful to see what studies are being done IMO.

TERFragetteCity · 04/06/2018 16:23

It is fucking outrageous that adults with metal health problems are allowed to promote sterilising children as if it is a thing.

SirVixofVixHall · 04/06/2018 16:23

I agree with @babieseverywhere on p2.

Bowlofbabelfish · 04/06/2018 16:28

they are going to continually post studies to divert peoples' energy and time.

This is a technique called Gish Galloping. Believe me, we scientists are used to it...

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

These drugs are powerful. If you want to look up the side effects they’re all easily googleable: Lupron and triptorelin are two of the main ones. They have AWFUL side effects.

Then the cross sex hormones come with their own risks of all sorts of things including a raise in lifetime cancer risk. The risks of very low dose hormones in the appropriate sex are still being evaluated. For example lifetime risks of hormonal contraceptives. Oestrogen in particular is like rocket fuel to a number of cancers. It’s going to be disastrous.

NO OTHER AREA of medicine gives these drugs out without serious clinical need. Many patients on these drugs (prostate patients for example) find he side effects intolerable. NO OTHER indication would be treated with such drastic measures when 80% of the patient pool is going to not even request them in a few years. This incidentally is to my mind WHY the suicide stats are so pressed by TRAs - it’s the only way they can pressure medics into doing this, to insinuate that the alternative is death.

This is going to be a major scandal - mark my words. In ten years time, when these kids are realising they were channelled down an irreversible pathway that resulted in sterility, mutilation and loss of sexual feeing they are going to sue. It’s going to be very sad.

I am deeply suspicious of any group or ideology that seeks to lie to children to say they can change sex, and that aims to sculpt them into permanent-childhood/adolescence. It’s incredibly disturbing.

HerFemaleness · 04/06/2018 16:29

There's something uniquely distasteful about grown adults who advocate for the sterilisation of children.

R0wantrees · 04/06/2018 16:30

There are however 20,000 or so Women in the US severely damaged by Lupron given for premature puberty, there are various support groups for them.

GenderApostate

I read this article at the weekend & it references the women's groups. I wasn't aware of this issue with Lupron.

I know nothing about its validity, the publisher or author but it seems quite detailed and the embedded links and references may also be of interest:

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

SirVixofVixHall · 04/06/2018 16:30

Oh God womb transplants. Do males talking about this have any idea how deeply sinister they sound ? It is really sickening. Appropriating our bodies to this degree. Envy not envy, obv. Although maybe that is a dual purpose emoticon..

HotRocker · 04/06/2018 16:37

Here is an article I came across earlier discussing the side-effects that some women have had from taking puberty blockers.
I have no idea how to paste links on here so apologies in advance if it doesn’t work
www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

SameTerfDifferentUserName · 04/06/2018 16:39

Please could you link to the study on the impact on the peer group of transitioning children?

TERFragetteCity · 04/06/2018 16:45

I think that men genuinely think that a womb is like a backpack and not in any way connected to the whole of a woman.

OrchidInTheSun · 04/06/2018 16:50

Not just womb transplants but to blithely say 'oh they can use surrogates' as if there are zero ethical issues with renting women's bodies out to gestate babies

Bowlofbabelfish · 04/06/2018 16:54

Do males talking about this have any idea how deeply sinister they sound ?

I know. I read stuff like this and all I can think is ...Ed Gein

Keeptrudging · 04/06/2018 16:59

Somebody's making a great profit out of other people's misery. Drugs, surgery, facial feminization, hair transplants, surrogates. It's obviously a very expensive undertaking, to be your 'true authentic self. Hmm

NatLuc · 04/06/2018 17:01

Many on these forums are divided on this topic. Some come from a position of 'children should be allowed blockers' and some from 'we should watch and wait until they are mentally mature enough to decide themselves'. Some sit on the fence and are more 'case by case basis is important'.

Obviously there are risks, pros and cons of all three approaches.

Risks involved in delaying puberty:

a. The adolescent is at risk (though not certain) of infertility or sexual dysfunction should they change their mind and turn out to not be trans.

b. If LONG TERM delaying of puberty then there is a risk of Osteoporosis but this is generally only in the longest of duration to my understanding?

c. If they turn out to not be trans then they will be years behind their peers in puberty and there is the risk they won't reach what would have been their natural pubertal potential.

However; 'watchful waiting' also carries with it some pretty devastating long term effects.

MtF:

Increased bone length and density, widened shoulders, facial bone development, male pattern hair loss, hormonally induced facial/body hair, a permanently deepened voice. To name but a few.

FtM:

Breast development, the distress of periods, pelvic development, stunted height and bone length (apologies I am less knowledgeable on the FtM side of things).

So.. many on these forums advocate for the watchful waiting strategy.

I understand that you believe 'trans people can come to terms with the body they were born with'. However if you have never experienced dysphoria I feel that you do not understand how naive this approach is. You are then condemning that individual to a lifetime of misery.

Forcing a a transman to go through having a mastectomy or a transwoman to have a breast augmentation (not paid for by the NHS in most cases for the latter) because the breasts they managed to develop on hormones never developed past tanner stage 3 (but on a male developed chest/rib cage.. ).

Forcing a transwoman to have to endure hundreds of hours of pain for facial and body hair removal, which costs a small fortune, only a small amount of which is covered by the NHS under the current schemes (it is my believe that PCOS sufferers should be able to access these funds too) and then days of embarrassment and pain totally hundreds more hours walking around unable to cover up the swelling and spend weeks feeling bruised and tender from electrolysis.

Not to mention the fact that vocal therapy is incredibly difficult. Vocal Surgery is highly variable in success rates. And also not covered on the NHS. Therapy is a nightmare to be referred for with incredibly long lead times.

Would 'watchful waiting' advocates therefore be happy for all surgeries and treatments and therapies to be completely covered on the NHS because trans people were forced to wait until they were already well underway through their sex designated puberty?

Because the way I see it, is that if trans young people are forced to be powerless with regards to their own body decisions then 'the system' should pay for forcing these young people to undergo otherwise avoidable changes. Not just some of the treatments, but all of them. And see them through to completion (for example, 30 hours of electorlysis paid for on the NHS and also £2500 worth of laser our of my own pocket for facial hair removal is not enough. I will likely need another 40+ hours to totally clear the hair I have due to puberty at £60 an hour).

Personally, I would have been happy to undergo the early stages of puberty until in a position I could have stored viable sperm or ova (if I so chose to) and then be given the option to halt puberty with blockers. The side effects so often touted are generally from long term use, again to my understanding. Then once I was sure of who I am, I should be allowed at the option to begin cross sex hormones to give myself the best possible chance of achieving a body that will allow me to be rid of dysphoria.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/

Surely at 16, the age of medical consent should come in to effect? Sperm and Ova are viable and storable.. At this point I can press the pause button. In the UK you can pass your driving test at 17. So why not give the option to drive your own body?

My belief is that sometimes in doing nothing, harm is done. I wish I had known that blockers were an option growing up.

I know some will take great offence to my opinion but I am open to discuss my stance respectfully.

CharlieParley · 04/06/2018 17:02

Not just womb transplants but to blithely say 'oh they can use surrogates' as if there are zero ethical issues with renting women's bodies out to gestate babies

This is only just beginning to be discussed in relation to rich gay couples from Western countries who use surrogates, especially surrogates from Third World countries. It's a tentative discussion so far and almost exclusively limited to feminist discourse but I believe it will become more widely discussed in the next few years.

That's because there are multiple ethical issues surrounding this and flippantly saying the resulting infertility in trans kids doesn't matter coz they can use surrogacy means to ignore those issues. You don't make up for medically inducing infertility in otherwise healthy children by saying they can always go down the rent-a-womb route.

Surrogacy is an emotionally, mentally and physiologically challenging measure of last resort, not a simple remedy.

FermatsTheorem · 04/06/2018 17:03

I believe someone asked OP on another thread where the wombs for womb transplants would come from, and OP declined to answer.

But yes, just like the question of where the surrogates will come from, it's all more than a bit creepy.

Basically if your idea of social justice is advocating for the sterilisation of children, you have some seriously screwed up ideas.

SirVixofVixHall · 04/06/2018 17:03

@Bowlofbabelfish. Yes, precisely that.

Grim.

SirVixofVixHall · 04/06/2018 17:08

Yes surrogacy too. I know of a male couple who chose a country for their surrogate on the basis that it was “the cheapest” . Sad . Men who feel women’s bodies are theirs to purchase, rent, appropriate, carve up and use are sadly all too common. We are walking useful parts, not fully human.

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