Where do we draw the trans line....?

[loveyouradvice]

Really interesting reading all the Daily Mail comments on latest Man Friday article.... most seemed quite happy with the idea of transsexuals using women's facilities, but no transwomen with dangly bits.

This used to be my position - and may still be so... but I am really concerned the more I read about certain transsexuals (the previously macho late-transitioning type).... those with rampant AGP which leads them to fetishise women's bodies and being in women's spaces in a very mansplainy way.... I feel very squeamish about sharing space with them.... and was deeply shocked by learning that some comb bins for used tampons and pads and wear them to "feel more like a woman" and then celebrate and share this online with other fetishists.....

My suspicion is that for the sake of what one might see as the transsexuals we have long shared space with, out of courtesy and respect, that yes it is okay for them to be in some women's spaces .... But my concern is that with TRAs being so active and the transgender movement steamrollering ahead, that more of the aggressive AGP type are going to feel liberated to come out of the closet and into our spaces....and the balance will shift

I know this is just academic - given that focussing on No Self-Id is our priority - but would be very interested in hearing what other's think as I try to clarify my own position

@ReluctantCamper @thebewilderness
I didn't burn out I was just out enjoying the company of my friends over dinner but thanks for asking

I am a woman and have the same rights as you under law and protections from discrimination and to say that I am a rape threat or a thread to woman is disgusting to be honest

EVIDENCE to where I said that

I was talking to the rest of the group at that point

That's is not what your post implies

No you are not an actual woman. You are transgender. Having the legal right to be treated as though you were a woman, in certain situations. Does not mean that you have actually changed sex. And no, you do not have the same rights. You have ( quite rightly ) rights that protect you from discrimination, but we also have the right to single SEX provision where appropriate. As you are not the same sex as women this does not include you.
Also what on earth is this “stood up by a woman “stuff ? Why are you making things up ?

Hi again J4nice. Nobody called you a pig. Someone said you were squealing like a pig - totally different thing.

Nobody is threatened by you. Nobody called you a rapist. You were advised that trans people in general have been found to have the same offending patterns as those of their biological sex and that this is why many women are wary of trans women.

TIM is not offensive. It's not an expression I like to use myself but it's a factual descriptor not a weapon.

Your GRC gives you many of the same legal protections as a woman. It doesn't make you a woman, because biology.

I've not seen anyone try to silence you. But if you are not an activist of any kind (or a troll) why did you to choose to post on a part of the forum that is specific to womens' rights rather than in one of the other topics that interest you?

Oh and welcome to mumsnet. Did you play netball at school? I was too short to be any good at it sadly but I was wide enough to be quite useful in goal for the hockey team.

@SirVixofVixHall actually that's where you are wrong, my birth certificate states I was born female and my gender is female to call me anything but female is an insult

T.I.M is an offensive word and again caused distress and upset and the post did say I was a PIG who was stood up by woman but I will see if I can find it to quote it if MN have not removed it

J4nice: What does "female" mean?

Looking back over the thread I see one price of abuse i missed this

@TerfsUp
TRA: Fucking bigot TERF, you need a punch. Suck my dick

This is the kind of mentality of users on MN

Gender isn’t Sex. The only people who can possibly be Female are those of us BORN Female.
A legal fiction of a birth certificate doesn’t change material reality.

J4nice

Just stop it with the twisting and misrepresentation, it's nonsense. No one called you a pig, no one called you a rapist.

I'm starting to think you are here just to see if you get us to say something that you can post on Twitter as evidence of transphobia.

A seemingly large percentage of TIM with GRC seem to stumble into FWR.

No point to the comment, just saying.

J4anice:Looking back over the thread I see one price of abuse i missed this

@TerfsUp
TRA: Fucking bigot TERF, you need a punch. Suck my dick

This is the kind of mentality of users on MN

No. That’s a quote from a TIM - someone like you

facepalm

J4nice for a supposedly educated person you're a bit dim.

Those are indeed threats you have quoted above. Direct threats from TRA to women on twitter.

I've never seen anyone on here threaten to punch anyone, much less actually do it (like Tara Wolf did at Speakers Corner, remember?) and most of us* don't have dicks......

*Men post here. Pre-op trans women post here. Post-op trans men post here. Don't recall any of them posting about their dicks though. Happy to be proved wrong if I am wrong.

I came here I posted expecting a welcome.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Short term memory fail?!

Even you aren't that clueless. This was your first post and it would take some delusional levels of chutzpah to expect FWR to hang out the bunting to celebrate your arrival:

If this topic had been about race it would have been shutdown by now, to be honest I dont know what whats the matter with people & mums net, who hate a group of individuals it is clear as day that this topic and similar ones along with the ones members post on twitter, that this is intended to provoke hate and conflict in public bathrooms and other areas you all should be ashamed of yourselves as should the CEO of mumsnet for allowing this to carry on

you are causing distress & anxiety to the trans community and this must stop.

reading through this threat you claim to be worried about fake news articles and shout fears of rape which is pathetic to be honest but the kind of people falsly shout rape should also be shame of themselves as should mumsnet for providing a service which targets transgender individuals

there is a fine line between free speech and stiring hate, mums net knows exactly what is going on here and when trouble sparks out in public places its mumsnets fault and they should be held accountable for each incident and the government should bill mumsnet for the cost to the tax payer for such incidents because I for one dont want my tax money to be wasted on the hate incidents that you have caused nor do I want other people to be harmed because of the actions of mumsnet

TRA: Fucking bigot TERF, you need a punch. Suck my dick

I said that in reply to a comment - that was not about you - to another user on this thread, J4nice. And, like the comment it was replying to, it was not about you.

I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but not everything is about you, J4nice.

@Sandunesandseashells

J4anice:Looking back over the thread I see one price of abuse i missed this

@TerfsUp
TRA: Fucking bigot TERF, you need a punch. Suck my dick

This is the kind of mentality of users on MN

No. That’s a quote from a TIM - someone like you

Someone like me?

I posted expecting a welcome because there are topics and information on mumsnet that interest me

Well, post on some of them then. Be interesting, and interested in others. What's the problem?

Never in the entire history of the world has a feminist told a transperson to "suck on my clit" or threatened violence of any kind, or actually committed violence of any kind towards a transperson. Yet these actions are very common from TRAs towards women, and we have numerous examples of women actually being beaten up by trans activists let alone endless examples of threats of violence and graphic descriptions of the actual violence TRAs would like to commit towards certain women.

J4nice supports and represents these violent misogynists and wonders why they are not greeted with warm welcome.

Actually under European and international law I have the same rights as everybody as set out in law

The law clearly states that if national law is in conflict with international law, national law shall be set aside

International law states that we are all equal before the law

You can't give someone one set if rights and not another

But I guess I'm uneducated having studies such laws and uses them for years in legal arguments where I was taught by one of leading experts in the field

@Opheliah again show me the post where k say I support violence when I don't

I do not support stiring of hate gainst any race, gender or protected group of peoplr
which is what is happening in here and I now have an appointment with my MP booked, to address these concerns

"TIM is not offensive. It's not an expression I like to use myself but it's a factual descriptor not a weapon."

It is highly offensive because it deliberately misgendering. As such I believe it is a personal attack and a breach of MN rules. I am in discussions with MN HQ and others on the topic.

" Changing your birth certificate doesn't magically make you a woman, it's not possible.

The law doesn't recognise you as female, it recognises that for some purposes you should be treated as such, but there are exemptions to this."

I am equally taking advice on statements like this which are clearly legally false and cause obvious offence. The Gender Recognition Act is clear: sex is recognised" for all purposes", as it should be because it is a correction not a change. That is why it is the Gender Recognition Act not the Gender Reassignment Act. The exceptions aren't to the recognition of sex but to certain rights. That's very different.

"J4nice supports and represents these violent misogynists "

And that is almost certainly libelous