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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where do we draw the trans line....?

712 replies

loveyouradvice · 02/06/2018 16:07

Really interesting reading all the Daily Mail comments on latest Man Friday article.... most seemed quite happy with the idea of transsexuals using women's facilities, but no transwomen with dangly bits.

This used to be my position - and may still be so... but I am really concerned the more I read about certain transsexuals (the previously macho late-transitioning type).... those with rampant AGP which leads them to fetishise women's bodies and being in women's spaces in a very mansplainy way.... I feel very squeamish about sharing space with them.... and was deeply shocked by learning that some comb bins for used tampons and pads and wear them to "feel more like a woman" and then celebrate and share this online with other fetishists.....

My suspicion is that for the sake of what one might see as the transsexuals we have long shared space with, out of courtesy and respect, that yes it is okay for them to be in some women's spaces .... But my concern is that with TRAs being so active and the transgender movement steamrollering ahead, that more of the aggressive AGP type are going to feel liberated to come out of the closet and into our spaces....and the balance will shift

I know this is just academic - given that focussing on No Self-Id is our priority - but would be very interested in hearing what other's think as I try to clarify my own position

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 03/06/2018 17:07

Its also disablist towards people with a learning disability, or dementia to expect them to lie.

I cant think of another case where basic human rights have competed, or when giving rights to one group has erased those for another. It hasn't happened before because this isn't how human rights work.

Ereshkigal · 03/06/2018 17:08

The rad fems aren't looking in the right place - the real protection for many trans people lies under the protected characteristic of disability. To unpick that is going to be almost impossible :)

True colours there. Nasty gloating about women losing rights. We all see you.

Also the term is reasonable adjustment". That means that a large part of how it is defined is about perception of the issues involved. With a greater regard for women's rights things start to look a bit different as to whether it's proportionate for women to have privacy from male people.

ReluctantCamper · 03/06/2018 17:09

OK, I'm calling piss take now. Nobody's reading comprehension is that bad.

You can take your mask off now J4nice

Ereshkigal · 03/06/2018 17:10

Its also disablist towards people with a learning disability, or dementia to expect them to lie.

YY.

J4nice · 03/06/2018 17:10

@UpstartCrow I am cusrious which human rights are being violated of a woman when I use the bathroom to pee and mind my own business? just curious
I am a expert in human rights and european law so I am just wondering what you will say......

ReluctantCamper · 03/06/2018 17:10

you can call us women J4nice, since that's what most of us are. we wouldn't find that offensive in the slightest.

UpstartCrow · 03/06/2018 17:11

ts disingenuous to pretend its just about bathrooms. Erasing sex as a class in an attempt to make a minority of people who have dysphoria feel more comfortable isn't going to work out for anyone.

Sex based services and spaces are needed by people from that biological sex. People who aren't from that sex can fight for their own spaces and services, and we would support them.

J4nice · 03/06/2018 17:12

I am a woman and you dont call me that, so lets say I call you bitch or hoe or whore. thats what you are doing to me by calling me a TIM

ReluctantCamper · 03/06/2018 17:12

I am a expert in human rights and european law so I am just wondering what you will say

and yet unable to properly comprehend a two line post, or show kindness to the comma.

Really, standards have slipped haven't they?

J4nice · 03/06/2018 17:13

wouldnt you find that offensive? maybe slut or something that rhymes with blunt

JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

J4nice · 03/06/2018 17:14

@ReluctantCamper see you cant state which law because you know you are wrong

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 17:15

No I am Curious and there is no way you are an expert in any law... that's self-evident!

And your focussing on toilets is indicative of your trying to narrow the conversation, a tactic we have seen many times before. As most posters here would say "Piss where you like, it has been happening for decades. But don't demand I call you a woman, don't call me cis, and stop trying to bloody silence me"

Hyppolyta · 03/06/2018 17:15

J4nice, personally I find it highly offensive a male thinks he can be a woman.

You are offensive, highly so, you just have so little respect for women that you cant see it.

But can you please answer why you dont want third spaces?

LangCleg · 03/06/2018 17:16

I'm in the middle of a Mel Brooks film, ain't I?

Have we hit 3p on income tax yet?!

UpstartCrow · 03/06/2018 17:17

@J4nice
You asked me who's rights are being violated, and my answer would be those of Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Romany and other women, who can't perform certain actions in front of men who they are not related to.
Also, women who are having a miscarriage, or a heavy period and want privacy to deal with that.

We need private spaces for more than one reason. We dont just pee in bathrooms.

ForalltheSaints · 03/06/2018 17:18

Women's sport should only be for biological women.
Where there is communal undressing/changing, women only spaces should not include those with a penis.
If someone requests a female medical health professional, likewise not one with a penis (or if a man, that they have one).

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 17:18

I am a woman and you dont call me that, so lets say I call you bitch or hoe or whore. thats what you are doing to me by calling me a TIM

Nah! I a human, not canine

I am not a garden implement

I have never sold my sex

But you, like every other trans man or woman are a trans identifing ma or woman. That's just biology! The very existance of a GRC confrms that!

JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 17:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/06/2018 17:23

Can one of the women here post a photo of their GRC please? I don't seem to have one.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 17:25

I think mine is in the same place as my 50m swiming certificate Smile

JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 17:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 17:26

Grin Back at you, you old secateur!

LangCleg · 03/06/2018 17:28

I think mine is in the same place as my 50m swiming certificate

Mine's hidden away with my touch typing certificate - which the school made me do because I was an actual girl.

(Made a fuss and got into technical drawing O level though. An early feminist victory for moi.)

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 17:28

No! I object most strongly to have had that post deleted. There was no racism. Badly done MNHQ!!!

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