Where do we draw the trans line....?

[loveyouradvice]

Really interesting reading all the Daily Mail comments on latest Man Friday article.... most seemed quite happy with the idea of transsexuals using women's facilities, but no transwomen with dangly bits.

This used to be my position - and may still be so... but I am really concerned the more I read about certain transsexuals (the previously macho late-transitioning type).... those with rampant AGP which leads them to fetishise women's bodies and being in women's spaces in a very mansplainy way.... I feel very squeamish about sharing space with them.... and was deeply shocked by learning that some comb bins for used tampons and pads and wear them to "feel more like a woman" and then celebrate and share this online with other fetishists.....

My suspicion is that for the sake of what one might see as the transsexuals we have long shared space with, out of courtesy and respect, that yes it is okay for them to be in some women's spaces .... But my concern is that with TRAs being so active and the transgender movement steamrollering ahead, that more of the aggressive AGP type are going to feel liberated to come out of the closet and into our spaces....and the balance will shift

I know this is just academic - given that focussing on No Self-Id is our priority - but would be very interested in hearing what other's think as I try to clarify my own position

@MsMcWoodle so let me gets this straight, you are calling me a bully beause legally I am female and I have told you that I am legally female and hold a GRC, becasue iv reported hateful posts which are abusive, you are calling me a bully?

Erm... you see I never did see the logic there.

How can someone be misgendered on an internet forum where every single poster is anonymous. Any one of us could be male or female, black, white, young, old etc.

And misgendering in real life is, at the very, very worst, rude! Not a crime. If misgendering becomes a crime then anyone using the term cis about many posters here would also be arrested. That's how it works, in real life.

Twitter logic, where you report and get someone deleted from the twitterverse is social media phenomenon, not a law, and, as far as I can tell, is done by an algorythym that needs re-programming.

So, to reiterate, I have no idea who you are, but if you claim to be a woman by virtue of a GRC then I disagree. You might like to know that about a year ago I would have agreed with you, but behaviours, such as yours here, have changed my mind. The continued bullying tactics, vague threats and generally male pattern behaviours, have completely changed my opinion.

A bit of an own goal, wouldn't you say?

Deliberately misgendering someone in a public space is unacceptable

I find it unacceptable that someone will force me to use counter-intuitive pronouns. It's psychological control.

Oops! That should realluy have read

^The continued bullying tactics, vague threats and generally male pattern behaviours coming from TRAs and their clueless allies have completely changed my opinion.

Still an own goal!

misgendering in real life is, at the very, very worst, rude! Not a crime

Well... Curious in New York it is actually a crime with a potential fine of $250,000.

Not in this country though. Thank fuck.

All I know is that MN feels like a very uncomfortable space for people who have undergone gender reassignment because of all misgendering and transphobia. That's a problem which MN will need to deal with - and soon.

J4 - agree with spontaneous. This seems a strange place to hang out if you don't want to hear opposing views. What are you thinking by it?

They dealt with it. Transphobia is always deleted.

Gibbot - Why is important to you to silence people?

Discussing sex based protections isn't transphobia

Sorry, Gibbert..

mumsnet have done thinging about the transphobic posts in which I am told that "I am not a woman and I am a TIM" despite you knowing I hold a GRC, this is a hate crime, I will wait for mumsnet to respond

"They dealt with it. Transphobia is always deleted."

Misgendering is transphobia, and it is rife and is not being dealt with

Legal options

OMG. I'm removing my support for reinstating Legal Aid. At this rate, it'll be 2p on income tax!

sorry for the typo, mumsnet have done nothing it should read

hate crime Views and opinions are a hate crime now.

Really, Ophelia Another reason not to go!

But ye gods!

Gibberty 2 things spring to mind... 1. There are trans individual here who woudl disagree with you; 2. You don't have to be here. General rule of thumb: if it hurts stop doing it!

A 3rd thing would be stop trying to silence women!

@spontaneousgiventime I guess people cant understand that calling someone a TIM and calling them a man when they have been told that you hold a GRC, is a crime and you trying to justify this is just as bad

I'm not sure what J4nice intended when they decided to post on here. But everytime this happens it just reaffirms my views.

Think I'll join tru (virtually), and chill in the garden.

Oh! I guess people cant understand that calling someone cis and calling them cis when they have been told that you don't want to be labelled that way is a crime and you trying to ignore this is just as bad

Do you see that?

"Why is important to you to silence people?"

Because there is a world of difference between something like Trans Trend which is a campaign site and MN which is either a service open to the public for the purposes of discussing a range of things of interest to women. It isn't acceptable for a service to be a deeply unpleasant place for a particular protected characteristic.

@CuriousaboutSamphire show me which law states this?

J4nice Last time. You're a TIM, your DNA says male. That is all I have to say to you. You will never police my thoughts and views, no doubt you will try, you will not succeed. I have nothing more to say to you.

It isn't acceptable for a service to be a deeply unpleasant place for a particular protected characteristic

With zero sense of irony.