Trans Voices For Appeal Complain About Together For Yes Campaign

[SunsetBeetch]

You couldn't make it up at this point, could you?

""Trans Voices for Repeal would like the..Together for Yes campaign..to formally acknowledge the pain their actions have caused trans people in Ireland, the negative effect their campaign has had on the mental health of trans people and the unnecessary nature of this exclusion."

twitter.com/doormatt134/status/1000620731468845057?s=19

medium.com/@transvoicesforrepeal/trans-voices-for-repeal-call-on-the-together-for-yes-campaign-to-formally-apologise-to-trans-people-84931f0fa85d

Which of you predicted this?

There have been times in the past when there was a concerted effort by men to edit women out of humanity and recorded history by changing our name or our sex. It is bizarre to realize that we are living one of those historically significant periods and can see how it was and is being done.

Pratchet

cf Extract from Fairplay4Women re the Scottish legislation:

"Last year while we were all looking the other way and distracted by the UK government’s proposals to reform the Gender Recognition Act the word woman was stolen from us. It was sneakily done by the Scottish parliament and hidden behind a smoke screen. That smoke screen was The Gender Representation on Public Boards Bill.

The Bill introduced the ‘gender representation objective’ – a target that women should make up 50% of non-executive board membership.

The purpose of this bill was admirable. It was to help women overcome the institutional sexism we suffer due to our sex. Positive action to redress the imbalances that have arisen from centuries of historical disadvantage. It was to acknowledge the reality that institutionalised inequality and sexist attitudes stop most women from reaching their full potential in public life. Financial barriers, income inequality, the gender pay gap, sexist attitudes, gender stereotyping, women’s disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, the undervaluing of women’s paid work, and media portrayals of women, to name but a few influences, all play a role in the sexism that prevents a fair number of women being involved in public life.

But in a cruel twist of irony it was also to be the perfect trojan horse to steal the very meaning of the words woman and female from us."

fairplayforwomen.com/scottish_stole_woman/

Thanks. I find that so painful. 'Under the radar' indeed. It's so painful to think of that.

They hate us so much, it's frightening. Waking up and realising it was liberating but is now terrifying.

Irish Government will be announcing draft legislation within 6 weeks according to R4 news.

It will say pregnant people. We have to fight this in the UK until we drop.

Across social media a narrative is being woven that winning of the Repeal the 8th vote is a victory for trans people over gender critical people. It's insane.

It will say pregnant people. We have to fight this in the UK until we drop.

& if Northern Ireland is pushed (as it should be) to align with both mainland UK and Eire on abortion rights for women, will its legislative language also align with both countries?

@nauticant that is so awful. The tiny, tiny number of TRAs have had such a grotesquely disproportionate influence on this on social media but in the real world no-one would believe what they're demanding because they're sneaky and great at playing at Most Oppressed Ever. This is how our GRA got through.

I mean what the fuck did the referendum success have to do with them? Nothing in the campaign except a few of them doing the same work everyone else did, happily and anonymously. So why is it a victory over radical feminists? You ask any older Irish woman who voted yes if women's oppression is rooted in our biology and you'll get blank looks- of course it is, what else could it be? Most of them are radfems without ever using the term - women in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond, who have a lot of experience of how the Catholic establishment treated women. They were the ones who carried it through, not just the blue haired postmodernism-drunk kids who know fuck all about life. And they aren't on Twitter in such great numbers so you get this bonkers narrative.

I'm not sure how they expected to be included.

"a victory for trans people over gender critical people"

Surely a victory for women and girls over a system that histroically failed to recognise them as full people?

And since when were old school feminists anti abortion?

It's all nuts.

They hate us so much, it's frightening. Waking up and realising it was liberating but is now terrifying.

I know what you mean entirely.

Y’know - when it comes to abortion legislation, clearly by any reasonable definition - currently - pregnant person=woman (until such time as someone transplants a womb into a man, which is massively ethically dodgy but will happen at some point. And if/when it does, and that man becomes pregnant, and for whatever reason then needs an abortion, I want him to have the right to choose that). So, in this particular instance, I’d not be too upset by the wording pregnant people. Pregnant people are women anyway. I’d much rather ‘pregnant people’ than ‘pregnant women, transgender men, non-binary and genderqueer non-men’ or some such guff. And at least, in this instance, the language change isn’t actually seeking to redefine “woman” or co-opt female experience for trans-identifying males.

Perhaps it’s a case of pick your battles. I know, I know, it is a slippery slope. But at least ‘pregnant people’ isn’t a blatant lie.

So when you talk about in other countries "pregnant people can be imprisoned for miscarrying" or "pregnant people are not provided with decent healthcare" or even "young people who are forced into marriage, if they become pregnant are at a higher risk of death"

Doesn't this water it down?

If you say women and girls imprisoned for miscarrying
Women and girls denied decent healthcare in pregancy
Girls who are forced into marriage are at higher risk of death if they are impregnated

Then that brings to the fore, the fact that this is done to the female population.

I do think that it waters down a lot of messages to soften the language, leave room for saying, well it happens to men too, and if they're supposed to be in charge of everything, it must be inevitable / we need to support men more / why focus on girls and women when it's an everyone problem.. etc

It will be in the details though.

Cwenthryth
Look at any of the charities supporting women with gyny or breast cancer.... why would they not also change their use of 'women' to 'people'?
Mumsnet?
Women's Aid?
Women & Equalities?

The fact that people want to eradicate the word women is the game changer for me.
I understand your point Cwenthryth , but where do we draw the line ? Do we give in to pregnant people in order to keep breastfeeding rather than chest feeding? Do we allow mixed sex changing rooms in shops in order to have single sex changing rooms in swimming pools? Do we accept that sex crime statistics are now meaningless with 6 "women" being charged with rape but negotiate that women shouldn't have to share cells with "women" rapists? Do we ignore the statistics about sexual harassment of girls in schools and just open up all changing rooms and toilets to boys self id ing as girls but negotiate that we can still teach girls about their own biology and needs? Will it all be a trade off? Where do we draw the line?
I'm not inclined to give any quarter to people who bully, oppress, intimidate and silence women. Anyone who approaches massive societal change with a bullying #nodebate is not fit to be part of that society. Respect, discuss, negotiate not bully, intimidate and oppress.

If it is not only women who have children, you do not have a protected class of people who can be discriminated against because of their pregnancy.

I completely understand objections or counter arguments to my last post. Erasure of women’s experience, if you can’t name an oppression how can you fight it.

I think my line would be - is it actually true or not. So chestfeeding - just isn’t true - it’s mammary (breast) tissue that produces milk, even in males. Chest tissue does not produce milk. Women being charged with rape - unless it’s by joint enterprise - just isn’t true, rape (in UK law) requires penis and penis-bearers are men.

The other examples about single sex provision aren’t straightforwardly about language and no I absolutely don’t endorse compromise when it comes to protecting women-only spaces. Seems obvious but just to be clear

But pregnant people - to me just equates with pregnant women anyway. It isn’t a lie.

Well, no, it's exactly the same a breastfeeding.

Saying pregnant people, implies (is to cover) the idea that men can be pregnant. The whole point is that people must not read it and think "oh it means women" they must think "oh this is about people, men or women, ones who happen to be pregnant".

The idea that men can become pregnant is as much of a lie as your breastfeeding / chestfeeding statement - it's exactly the same.

It's also a gift to MRAs and misogynists who will grab any chance they can to divert attention away from the struggles specifically faced by women / girls.

Both the TRAs and the MRAs are promoting the 3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish, and want it codified into law.

Kyanite you could rewrite all the laws everywhere to have a protected characteristic of pregnancy,

Lots of countries would need to do this though and change takes time, and can be used as a means to roll back rights.

If for eg you wanted to change the abortion law in England Wales (may be different in scotland, sure is in NI) to remove references to woman / women (just had a look, there are lots) then you open the law up generally for reform. With the DUP having an angle on the govt, and a general upswing in religious ideas, and the fact that this is always a contentious subject, it could be dangerous to open it up for discusson, and teh result could be an erosion of the rights we have currently. As it is, there are periodic attempts to reduce the legal amount of time you can get an abortion (outside of serious disability / risk to mother).

And it all takes time.

Meanwhile I can't imagine the NHS refusing an abortion to a transman n the grounds that they are male and therefore aren't entitled to one...

Because all this is about SEX.

If it is not only women who have children, you do not have a protected class of people who can be discriminated against because of their pregnancy.

How about the group of people who are protected are the, er, the pregnant ones? I mean how hard is that? Not hard. Don't discriminate against anyone who is pregnant. Easy.

The thing, as I assume everyone knows, with Ireland is that they also have this whole GRC legal fiction thing too. So a legal man very much can be pregnant.

And from what I can gather this group is transmen and other natal females of various gender identities. Not a great time to be sensitive about it, I agree, but at least they waited til after the vote.

Not surprised to see a good number of folks making it all about the transwomen/natal males though. Careful guys, your prejudices are showing.