Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

[Bloodmagic]

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

Going about their business with no respect for the boundaries of women.

@Magpiesarehuge - I am sorry that you've been affected this way. I also agree that I like to think that I treat those as I would wish to be treated, which is with respect and the benefit of the doubt that they are a kind and good person.

If they are welcomed into those by the owners and proprietors

I get that. Wasn't it top shop who made that statement? But how many others have given express permission, how many organisations are shamed into changing policies. And how many women and girls who use what they consider to be sex segregated spaces, know that TIM can be present.

And how many individuals and organisations know that they can exclude TIM?

Sorry everyone, my browser tab went weird and I had to try posting a few times. The times I thought didnt work clearly did..

We have to 'prove ourselves' to be taken seriously. That is why we try to conform to gender expectations that most of that sex take on themselves. Because by 'falling in line with the majority' this is how we can be seen to be 'trying hard enough'.

Essentially you have a vested interest in ensuring that gender stereotypes continue to thrive, and indeed become more entrenched in society. This is anti-woman.

Essentially you have a vested interest in ensuring that gender stereotypes continue to thrive, and indeed become more entrenched in society. This is anti-woman.

That's not true HerFemaleness, that's a massive and unfair reach from what NatLuc is saying.

It is not the fault of transpeople that gender stereotypes exist. It is not the fault of transpeople that we are all conditioned to assess people in part on the basis of those stereotypes when inferring their sex and gender. It is not the fault of transpeople that their identity is so questioned that they are obliged to express those stereotypes.

I could equally say to you that your refusal to acknowledge the identity of a transwoman as a "woman" forces them to perpetuate damaging gender stereotypes as a means of appeasing or convincing you, and that it is you who is anti-woman.

You can't on the one hand say "you're not a woman, there is no evidence, give me evidence", and on the other say "this may be evidence of what it is to be a woman in our society, but we don't want it to be and we don't like it! No real woman would use this as evidence of their womanhood, you imposter!".

It's a completely impossible and deeply unfair bind.

@HerFemaleness - Not at all! I am saying that I am trying 'to play the game'. Conform to the expectations that is set by the consensus not the minority.

If there would be no stereotypes, I would still be free to express myself however I wished, BUT with the exception that I would not (for example) feel shame for having to grow through my facial hair for 3 days prior to electrolysis and therefore feeling I have to dial back my presentation to 'androgynous' to avoid people starring and laughing at me for clearly being a tranny.

It is still my body that causes me dysphoria. Because it is my body that is wrong. Getting rid of stereotypes wouldn't fix that it would just relieve the pressure to externally conform.

I'm gonna get off your patch NatLuc

PS hope you're doing really well!

@RatRolyPoly - LMAO you are fine, honestly. Talk all you like!

I am doing okay thanks, going to Comic Con in London tomorrow, just need to get through 2 hours of electrolysis tomorrow morning first..

@RatRolyPoly - LMAO you are fine, honestly. Talk all you like!

I am doing okay thanks, going to Comic Con in London tomorrow, just need to get through 2 hours of electrolysis tomorrow morning first..

@RatRolyPoly - LMAO you are fine, honestly. Talk all you like!

I am doing okay thanks, going to Comic Con in London tomorrow, just need to get through 2 hours of electrolysis tomorrow morning first..

Haha, I'm going to have so many notification emails!! Handhold for the electrolysis; enjoy comic con

I'm sorry you find my struggle to be seen for what I should of been offensive I really am.

Please don't be manipulative by putting words into my mouth. I don't find your struggle offensive. I find you describing your struggle as a means of appropriating my reality offensive. If you described your struggle as one of asserting the right to be trans rather than the right to be a woman as some kind of reward for effort, I would not find it in the least bit offensive.

The thing is daimbars, the whole world knows that you and your wife could never have biologically had a baby together. No one is forced to pretend this is physically possible. You don't have to give birth to be a parent.

The issue with the trans ideology is that we are told people can change sex. Which is as impossible as two women producing a baby.

You being married or being a parent has no impact on women.

Trans is no longer just about those poor few with genuine dysphoria. We should not have to dilute the term woman to include anyone with a penis. It makes it meaningless.

@LangCleg - Honestly I think what upsets me more than any amount of misgendering or identity politics disagreements is that you think I am being manipulative.

It IS my right to be trans. But being trans is an assertion that there is something wrong with me. Which there is. And my struggle is to be accepted with dignity. It is not my intention to appropriate anything. But the simple fact, for trans people, is that we are being excluded from a club for a reason (a good reason in certain circumstances) that is not our fault (being born with the wrong body) which is infuriating for us because it is not our fault. But equally I see and empathise with the fact that many people see me as trying to take something from them.

It is not my intention to ever insult anyone. Ever. Not scare them or make them feel unsafe. Because I know how that feels.

I am not your enemy. But I understand why you see me as such and that upsets me. :/

@ijustwannadance - People cannot change sex. If they could, this would not even be an issue.

We have to 'prove ourselves' to be taken seriously. That is why we try to conform to gender expectations that most of that sex take on themselves. Because by 'falling in line with the majority' this is how we can be seen to be 'trying hard enough'

I hate most of the “gender expectations” forced on me though. Many of us do but as you say we conform to a degree to be accepted by society - whether we like it or not or think it’s crazy and unfair. Women and girls are hugely policed in this respect - shamed constantly if they deviate. And why i have a ptoblem with the many TW i see embracing the stereotypes (Shon Faye, IW, Paris Lees, Bergdorf etc) expected of females and even the more damaging porn based stereotypes you often see proudly acted out through Twitter. Males parodying and glorifying these damaging stereotypes and objectification of females.

People cannot change sex. If they could, this would not even be an issue

And yet the TRA say they can. Kids in school are told they can just take some pills and change sex. If everyone just admitted changing sex was impossible there would be no issue.

Gender is merely presentation.

Whilst I can empathise with you and understand that the current legal process is designed to help those like yourself, can you not see the damage just allowing anyone to merely state they are a women even when they make no changes at all (Muscato) is doing? It makes the word women a joke.

Whilst you say you are male but want to be called woman. We are now told trans women are now female too. Can't win.
Even you saying you are male and can't changed sex is deemed bloody transphobic!

NatLuc

1. Please don't @ me. It clutters up my inbox. I am capable of reading my name in bold text.

1. You are not being excluded from a bloody club. Womanhood is not a club. Claim your transhood, not my womanhood.

1. You arrived on this forum declaring your right to prevent other women from meaningfully comparing their Park Run perfomances against other women and to object was to deny you right to womanhood.

1. On this thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3246755-Transphobia-or-truths - you invoked multiple MRA talking points including women rape too and insinuated physical threat against a feminist with the audacity to give a feminist opinion to your face.

1. So forgive me if your I'm just a poor oppressed person and it hurts me when you nasty women believe otherwise posturing on this thread cuts absolutely no mustard with me.

It is not the fault of transpeople that gender stereotypes exist. It is not the fault of transpeople that we are all conditioned to assess people in part on the basis of those stereotypes when inferring their sex and gender. It is not the fault of transpeople that their identity is so questioned that they are obliged to express those stereotypes.

Yes, so I'm correct then.

I could equally say to you that your refusal to acknowledge the identity of a transwoman as a "woman" forces them to perpetuate damaging gender stereotypes as a means of appeasing or convincing you, and that it is you who is anti-woman.

1st rule of misogyny - Women are responsible for what men do.

Come on, give your head a wobble. Listen to yourself. My refusal to 'acknowledge' that being a woman is a feeling is somehow forcing men to embrace hyper-feminine stereotypes in order to be seen as women? I don't believe you can change sex, I'm not going to believe that a man in a short PVC skirt and a face full of makeup is any more of a woman than a man who merely presents himself in a tasteful pale yellow cardigan, jeans and dainty silver chain necklace.

You can't on the one hand say "you're not a woman, there is no evidence, give me evidence", and on the other say "this may be evidence of what it is to be a woman in our society, but we don't want it to be and we don't like it! No real woman would use this as evidence of their womanhood, you imposter!".

Evidence? You're jumping the gun a bit there. We haven't even been given a proper definition of what a woman is yet. How can you look for evidence of something that is apparently so mysterious and undefinable that it defies being put down on paper?

But the simple fact, for trans people, is that we are being excluded from a club for a reason (a good reason in certain circumstances) that is not our fault (being born with the wrong body) which is infuriating for us because it is not our fault.

Isn't this a bit like Rachel Dolezal being excluded from a club because she was born white, not black? It might be infuriating for you that you were born male, not female, but you can't change that fact, and it's not women's fault, either.

If there would be no stereotypes, I would still be free to express myself however I wished, BUT with the exception that I would not (for example) feel shame for having to grow through my facial hair for 3 days prior to electrolysis and therefore feeling I have to dial back my presentation to 'androgynous' to avoid people starring and laughing at me for clearly being a tranny.

And this is what we should all be working towards. An acceptance of everyone, however they choose to present. What is wrong with being androgynous? It's better to be honestly androgynous than pretend to be something you are not.

my refusal to 'acknowledge' that being a woman is a feeling is somehow forcing men to embrace hyper-feminine stereotypes in order to be seen as women?

I didn't say that was my opinion, I said that your argument was as useless as that one. I'm not going to choose for myself an argument I'm presenting as useless, am I!

I'm not going to believe that a man in a short PVC skirt and a face full of makeup is any more of a woman than a man who merely presents himself in a tasteful pale yellow cardigan, jeans and dainty silver chain necklace.

Well if we look at society as a whole it does become rather clear that people are more happy to accept transwomen as women the better they "pass" - or the better they appear to be women. So what you personally think about that is rather here nor there.

You're jumping the gun a bit there. We haven't even been given a proper definition of what a woman is yet. How can you look for evidence of something that is apparently so mysterious and undefinable that it defies being put down on paper?

It is a regular occurrence on these boards that posters ask, "in what way are transwomen women?". If that isn't an appeal for evidence than I'm a dodo in a baseball cap.

From upthread: I AM male.. I cannot change that biological fact. But I’m not a man.

I don't understand this. 'Man' means male adult human. So how is calling yourself male any different from calling yourself a man? Equally, woman means female adult human, so you can't be a woman unless you are female. To claim you are an actual woman, you must also claim to be female. They are the same thing (unless you are a child, in which case obviously you'd be a girl not a woman). You can't make the words male/female and man/woman change meaning just by wanting them to. They mean what they mean!

I agree entirely with the OP - very sensible and clearly-written.

Oh NatLuc. I am gender critical but can't help reading your posts and feeling so much compassion for you and your situation. You, and other gender dysphoric people, do seem to be really stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I don't think it is your fault, personally, I think a very vocal, angry, selfish but growing minority are appropriating your experience in an identity politics war all about them and their entitlements.

I think gender dysphoric people are victims of a society that constantly has to label and constrain us to boxes. Just as women are. And in that we share experience.

I think there exists a lot of vested interests in your dysphoria as there are vested interests in the female sex constantly feeling insecure about every aspects of themselves.

I don't understand your experience but I'm not going to deny you it. I don't have all the answers to how we move forward with this and reach solutions for everyone.

My thoughts are that biological sex should mean no more than literally the reproductive system we are born with and 'masculinity' and 'femininity' are personality traits that are open to all people and no one should be defined or constrained by. I do think gender dysphoria is a mental health condition that needs treating in a healthy productive way, that doesn't lie to people about changing sex.

It seems we've such a long way to go before we can just let people be who they are.

All this controversy essentially boils down to females having specific needs and vulnerabilities that males don't share which have nothing to do with identity and shouldn't be classed as transphobic to say. We need to be able to compete against each other in sport or we can't compete. We need to be able to talk about our biology without being seen as 'exclusionary' and sometimes we need to be away from males because they do pose a threat. AWS exist because females often lack in opportunity because of discrimination due to our sex not our identity. I think there should exist seperate shortlists for transpeople as they do experience their own discrimination.

I'm open minded and my opinions on this seem to be ever developing