Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

[Bloodmagic]

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

This also suggests that woman is some sort of achievement, if someone behaves or undertakes some challenge well, they are rewarded and become a woman.

Yes. It's not like levelling up, for crissakes. How bloody insulting.

daimbars - but the analogy is not really helpful.

You're not actually saying that you are your daughters biological parent though are you. The trans ideology if we apply your analogy to it is saying that you are as a fact your daughters biological mother - and it is doing this by some weird mush up of the meaning of "biological mother" to include someone who feels like they are the biological mother. Can you see how it doesn't really cross over?

As for legal fiction - many posters often comment that they are happy with the existing "legal fiction" for people who have fully transitioned. By that is not what the new ideology is doing.

@jellyfrizz - I cannot see how calling a transwoman a woman could suggest non feminine conforming females are not women?

I mean.. I would not say I am exclusively femme? Yeah sure I can be.. but I am just as comfortable in skinny jeans and a tshirt as I am in a dress.

@LangCleg / @Baroquehavoc - All about perspective, calling a transwoman a man is also insulting. But quite right, its not about unlocking an achievement or levelling up. But at the end of the day, I can't stop you referring to me he instead of she but ultimately it doesn't affect me.

I genuinely don't understand that toilet sign, daimbars. Who are those three figures meant to represent? A woman with baby, a man and a female child? Or what?

In our blissfully gender-non-conforming future these figures could be of any sex at all, surely?

Woman and baby, transwoman and baby, dress-wearing man and baby, dress-wearing transman and baby, trouser-wearing woman, transman, man, trouser-wearing transwoman, male child in dress, female child in dress....

And isn't that rather the point? That these toilets (or whatever they are) are for everyone?

aaaarrrrggghh I am talking in legal terms.

A non-biological mother who is married to the biological mother is the child's legal parent.

A trans woman with a GRC is legally a woman despite being born male

Both are legal fiction and I think both are fine.

I know a lot of people think the GRA should be abolished so trans people cannot legally change their gender. I disagree.

I think if this happened it would pave the way for rights being removed from same sex couples and families.

I know a lot of GC feminists are gay friendly but a lot of anti trans activists are also homophobic. Removing rights from trans people would be giving people like this power and a voice. Is that really what you want?

I cannot see how calling a transwoman a woman could suggest non feminine conforming females are not women?

You wrote of the ‘effort and struggle’ to gain acceptance as a woman. What did you mean by this? It suggests that being a woman is something to achieve. And if there are females who aren’t doing those things, are they not women?

This morning I fell a lot like Pooh Bear...

... intellectually I know that if what is posted doesn't make sense, and the poster seems to be tying themselves up in knots to make their point then the point is not strong enough to be made.

But, honestly, some of these posters seem to be arguing against themselves, changing stance mid sentence and, frankly, reading as one big, well meaning, muddle.

Why are we women tying ourselves up in such knots? The bottom line is that sex is not gender and the rights and protections of women are being diluted, overlooked, torn down, by the current social more of inclusivity, apparently at all costs!

It isn't about sharing loos with men in dresses, we have been doing that for decades. It is about the actual physiological being of "woman" being diminished to "Not Man", as has already happened. If that becomes a global reality it will NOT mean global parity, it will mean 100 years of women's activism will disappear in puff of blue smoke. NEVER to be regained!

I'm taking my Very Little Brain out to work... not sulking, if I don't reply to anyone

@jellyfrizz - Trans people suffer dysphoria from being in the sexed body that is incongruant with their identity. As such we do everything to relieve that dysphoria. That is the effort and struggle I am referring to, doing everything possible to have the world see them as they should have been.

I touched on this in an earlier post, or maybe it was in another thread about how clothes and haircuts and makeup (or lack of) or hormones and surgery are tools that trans people use to achieve the relief of their dysphoria. It is our bodies we are at odds with, not the presentation of our gender.

To refer to a trans person using pronouns or names befitting our birth sex undermines the effort we go to, to relieve that pain.

All about perspective, calling a transwoman a man is also insulting. But quite right, its not about unlocking an achievement or levelling up. But at the end of the day, I can't stop you referring to me he instead of she

It's not about bloody perspective. It's about material reality and women having the right to claim it and assert the right to define themselves. You talking about effort and struggle is absolutely inimical to that.

I don't call you a man and neither do I call you he, so please don't suggest that I do. I accept that trans identified male people are trying to escape manhood. I accept that physical transition is the embodiment of that. However, it doesn't make you a woman. It makes you trans. Be trans. Be proud of it. Have my blessing and support for that. Just don't appropriate me and my material reality or describe that appropriation as a deserved reward for effort and struggle. I find it deeply, foundationally, offensive.

I know a lot of people think the GRA should be abolished so trans people cannot legally change their gender.

No one cares about people’s gender. It’s suggesting you can change sex that people do not agree with.

You wrote of the ‘effort and struggle’ to gain acceptance as a woman. What did you mean by this? It suggests that being a woman is something to achieve. And if there are females who aren’t doing those things, are they not women?

I don't mean to speak for NatLuc, but wouldn't the effort and struggle be in relation to being accepted as a woman, not to actually being a woman (in the sense of one's own identity)?

And that a non-feminine woman does not have that same struggle on account of their bodily hardware being evidence enough for most people to accept them as a woman, whereas a transwoman - typically lacking that hardware - needs to make the additional efforts of slotting into a system of stereotypes to compensate, and to be accepted as a woman on that basis.

But, honestly, some of these posters seem to be arguing against themselves, changing stance mid sentence and, frankly, reading as one big, well meaning, muddle.

Are you sure you aren't simply not following?

jellyfrizz the current GRA uses both terms to mean the same thing. I agree that is confusing.

Are you sure you aren't simply not following? I did say I felt like Pooh Bear! But I meant that if I have to double think it to understand it then it isn't a string argument, maybe the poster hasn't thought it through fully, is working towards a more structured set of thoughts.

My main point is that I think all of this unthinking inclusivity is harmful to every member of society, whether they currently believe that or not! It's a kind of Orwellian "Unthink", and it is happening right now!

I don't mean to speak for NatLuc, but wouldn't the effort and struggle be in relation to being accepted as a woman, not to actually being a woman (in the sense of one's own identity)?

But what does accepted as a women mean?

From my perception, the outcome of acceptance leads to the definition of women changing to include some men, and that adult human females no longer have a word to describe themselves. That's not even taking into account the removal of needed sex segregation.

My main point is that I think all of this unthinking inclusivity is harmful to every member of society, whether they currently believe that or not! It's a kind of Orwellian "Unthink", and it is happening right now!

All of the inclusivity I've encountered is far from unthinking. The fact that those doing that thinking don't reach the same conclusions as the FWR boards certainly says something, but I don't think it says that there aren't intelligent people doing an awful lot of thinking about all of this.

“TRAs are doing people like me a disservice. They are poisoning the public against trans people instead of trying to foster a climate of understanding“

Totally agree. I’ve completely shifted my view from when i was totally accepting of TW as women, passionately argued for them and uttered the words “born in the wrong body” “have a female brain” etc. I’d like to think i treat each person as i find them but yes my view from following transfolk (even moderate reasonable nice TW) on likes of Twitter has made me generally negative.

But what does accepted as a women mean?

It means if I think I'm a woman, but you don't think I'm a woman, and I have to encourage you to advanced search my username to evidence my many years of posting about my c-sections and breastfeeding to convince you! Then I might be "accepted" by you as a woman - even though I knew I was one all along.

It's the same with transwomen but what they have to convince you is their visual presentation rather than their MN posting history.

adult human females no longer have a word to describe themselves.

Did you not manage to express what you meant in that last sentence?

I'd say that going into sex segregated spaces as a TIM without a GRC is the actions of a TRA.

I'd say that going into sex segregated spaces as a TIM without a GRC is the actions of a TRA.

If they are welcomed into those by the owners and proprietors of those spaces I would say they couldn't be TRAs. TRAs would typically be agitating for new rights and accesses; if those rights of access are already there it would just be a normal person going about their business to utilise them.

Making no judgement as to whether or not the owners of those spaces have made the right decision btw, just saying a normal transwoman going about their business and abiding by the rules placed upon them can't really be a TRA just because you wish the rules were different.

It's a male person with no respect for the feelings, privacy and boundaries of women. Which is a red flag.

You know as well as I do that TIM use the word female to describe themselves as much as they use the word woman (MtF is used a lot). If all of the 'women' and 'ladies' signs were removed and replaced with 'female human' would TIM stay out?

@LangCleg - I did not mean you personally, I meant in the sense of 'if one calls me he or a name befitting my sex' I just think it sounds pompous to type it that was an was trying to keep the tone casual. Sorry for the confusion!

I am not trying to appropriate your identity.. I understand that there are chasms of difference between trans women and women, I understand that you need rights and protection and that these are important.

Pride is probably the wrong word as I would rather not be trans. But yes, I am proud of who I am. I hold my head up high knowing how far I have come. How much I have gone through.

I'm sorry you find my struggle to be seen for what I should of been offensive I really am.

@RatRolyPoly - You can speak for me all you like, I'll soon tell you if I disagree haha. :p But exactly, women have all the evidence they need. Trans people are having to make the extra effort because all physical evidence of what we are claiming is not in our possession. We have to 'prove ourselves' to be taken seriously. That is why we try to conform to gender expectations that most of that sex take on themselves. Because by 'falling in line with the majority' this is how we can be seen to be 'trying hard enough'.

just saying a normal transwoman going about their business and abiding by the rules placed upon them can't really be a TRA just because you wish the rules were different.

^

This

@LangCleg - I did not mean you personally, I meant in the sense of 'if one calls me he or a name befitting my sex' I just think it sounds pompous to type it that was an was trying to keep the tone casual. Sorry for the confusion!

I am not trying to appropriate your identity.. I understand that there are chasms of difference between trans women and women, I understand that you need rights and protection and that these are important.

Pride is probably the wrong word as I would rather not be trans. But yes, I am proud of who I am. I hold my head up high knowing how far I have come. How much I have gone through.

I'm sorry you find my struggle to be seen for what I should of been offensive I really am.

@RatRolyPoly - You can speak for me all you like, I'll soon tell you if I disagree haha. :p But exactly, women have all the evidence they need. Trans people are having to make the extra effort because all physical evidence of what we are claiming is not in our possession. We have to 'prove ourselves' to be taken seriously. That is why we try to conform to gender expectations that most of that sex take on themselves. Because by 'falling in line with the majority' this is how we can be seen to be 'trying hard enough'.

@Magpiesarehuge - I am sorry that you've been affected this way. I also agree that I like to think that I treat those as I would wish to be treated, which is with respect and the benefit of the doubt that they are a kind and good person.