Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

[Bloodmagic]

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

SaraTree I know my home town and it is very pro trans. There may be a few GC feminists lurking around as well as a few racists and even a few homophobes but it is overwhelmingly inclusive.

TerfragetteCity it is also a biological impossibility for two women to have a baby together but try telling any lesbian couple with a child that only one of them has the right to call themselves a mother!

Reading your response with interest natluc

TerfragetteCity it is also a biological impossibility for two women to have a baby together but try telling any lesbian couple with a child that only one of them has the right to call themselves a mother!

Not quite sure what barrels need scraping next, you wanna charge by the hour. Why do you keep bringing gay and lesbians into the argument, they are nothing to do with this. Sit the fuck down.

@speakingwoman - I’m glad you found it worth reading. :)

TerfragetteCity if you are taking a stance that 'you can't argue with biology' then that would also mean not allowing same sex parents to both be a parent on a child's birth certificate. You can't have one 'biology only' rule for one set of people and not the other.

Two women could both be legal parents.

They couldnt both be biological parents.

A birth cert is a legal document.

Daim you need to stop providing strawman arguments about sexuality, and concentrate on the problems about gender and sex.

Then you may start to understamd the issue.

places like Brighton as toilets / swimming pools etc are generally gender neutral and set up for trans people to peacefully exist alongside everyone else. There's therefore no need for anyone to be 'critical' of another person's gender as it doesn't impact them in any way.

And that is where the porkies are "as it doesn't impact them in any way". It impacts females hugely, and mothers too, who don't want their daughters changing alongside males (of any kind btw).

So what actually happens, these changes get made, without real consultation with women/women's groups, and after the changes have been made - women have no choice but to stay away from those places.

That you cannot see how this enormously impacts females, is a byproduct of your male socialisation, clearly. Because if you were actually female, you would know this shit.

Those brighton toilets are a crock of shit! Loss of girls/women only spaces.

natluc, you'd be happy with the terms 'feminine male' and 'masculine female'?

if you are taking a stance that 'you can't argue with biology' then that would also mean not allowing same sex parents to both be a parent on a child's birth certificate. You can't have one 'biology only' rule for one set of people and not the other

A birth certificate is a social construct. You still don't seem able to comprehend the difference between biology and paperwork.

toilets / swimming pools etc are generally gender neutral and set up for trans people to peacefully exist alongside everyone else.

I thought TRA's wanted men who identify as women to be allowed to use female toilets. Surely making them gender neutral defeats the object and is not what they want?

PleaseDontGoadTheToad Nail on head. It's being able to use women's facilities that gives the validation to TIM's.

Hyppolyta a GRC is also a legal document. Trans people with a GRC are able to get their birth certificates amended.

A person born biologically male is legally able to change their gender to female.

Two biological women are legally able to appear on a child's birth certificate.

If you want the law to only reflect biological realities this would have by implications for same sex couples and families.

Seeing as a lot of GC feminists are gay this would be a pretty massive own goal.

Personally, I have no issues with those who have a GRC using female spaces, in relation to the exemptions set out in the Equlaities Act.

That isnt the problem, is it?
Self ID and the loss of sex segregation and womens spaces is the problem.

Hyppolyta A man with a GRC can still have a penis.

True, but even with a GRC they cant use certain womens spaces such as changing rooms etc, the exemptions are provided in the Equalities Act.

I think its as a shame people who have obtained a GRC are going to end up losing rights because of the people like Daim insisting that no sex segregation is ever needed, but sadly I dont see any other result here.

Hyppolyta Put it this way. Have you ever been asked for a copy of a GRC or even a birth certificate to enter a woman only space? No, me neither and nor are TIM's. They use all women's spaces anyway with the exceptions such as refuges. If in the male estate in prison they can be asked to be moved to the female estate and they can go onto women's wards etc. The GRC was really to allow a trans person to marry easier and for pension rights. All of this is equal now so the GRC is largely redundant.

Hyppolyta I didn't say sex segregation is never needed but as you point out there are exemptions in the Equalities Act which protect women.

Being concerned about self ID is one thing... saying trans people should not be able to legally change gender at all is taking it too far imo.

NatLuc You say:
the same way that what is is to be a woman cannot be universally explained - not going down this road lol

I genuinely don't understand this. Of course it can be universally explained! Where is the confusion or ambiguity?

We need to make individuals and organisations aware that they can exclude TIM even with a GRC from female facilities. Some seem to think or are been told that excluding TIM is discrimination.

We need to make individuals and organisations aware that they can exclude TIM even with a GRC from female facilities. Some seem to think or are been told that excluding TIM is discrimination.

^ This, absolutely this!

daimbars

re your toilet photo - I am a woman without a child who lives in Brighton - just wondering where am I meant to pee then? I don't appear to be included??

Going back to the OPs question I am trying to think of a way to explain why trans people are upset with GC feminists.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

Let's imagine the OP is talking to the non biological mother in a lesbian couple. Effectively the OP is saying 'we can't make you the child's mother, no one can, so you shouldn't be on the birth certificate or have any legal rights over the child. But why do you need to have that? We don't think you need to be a legal parent because biologically you're not. What's so bad about that?

LaSqrrl who on earth is it offensive to? Seeing as I'm a lesbian myself.