Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

[Bloodmagic]

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

@Mxyzptlk - It at least shows a level of respect through connotational (is that a word?) differences between male and man. I am a believer in ‘trans women are women’ but I’m not naive enough to not see the differences between trans women and women. Does that make sense? I AM male.. I cannot change that biological fact. But I’m not a man. I can only speak for myself though.

If I put it a different way.. I would never ever call a lesbian a dyke. They are both synonyms for the same thing, but one is a slur to the recipient of the word. To call a trans woman a man undermines the effort and struggle many trans women go through to gain some level of acceptance.

I appreciate ‘they’re just words’ but words have a powerful effect on people.

@Hyppolyta - not trying to be argumentative, just looking for you to elaborate on your opinion: does you having no problem with GRC holders extend to trans women that don’t pass? I’m still about 18 months away from being able to apply for a GRC, I still have a penis (that is likely to be the case for.. 24+ months), I also use women’s loos and changing rooms (the latter of which I only change in if there are cubicles, if not I don’t change on site, I just stick my stuff in a locker in the changing rooms and then leave and then retrieve at the end of my climbing/gym session and leave again). I definitely pass less when using the gym but even if I did have a GRC.. I wouldn’t carry it around with me, so I couldn’t prove if I had one or not.. does that make sense? How would you distinguish between GRC holders and non GRC holders?

As a side note, if their were genuine ‘gender neutral’ facilities (not just disabled facilities that ‘can’ be used as gender neutral) then I probably would use them.. just to avoid any conflict as being perceived to be a threat.

Using lesbian (why lesbian?) non biological parents on a birth certificate is a confusing analogy for the situation. I think a better analogy would be that men are changing the definition of women for the benefit of themselves and to the disadvantaged of women and girls. And those same men getting pissed off and often violent when women say no.

Lesbian, or pretendbian?

I have seen many non-passing transwomen in loos. I never actually stopped to think if they had a penis or not. As long as I wasnt seeing it, it didnt matter. Women and transsexual women have shared these spaces, for years it worked on mutual respect.

As long as they caused no issues, there was no problem. It certainly never bothered me.

But then we have gender fluid Travis, who by his own definition is not a woman, demanding and being granted to access to womens changing rooms in TopShop. Our TopShop has crappy curtains and mostly teenage girls undressing, who are entitled to some privacy.

That code of respect has been broken.

IMO, Id like to go back to having transsexual women using womens spaces respectfully, but that simply cant happen, so we need to have sex segregation enforced.

That isnt a result of gender critical women, but people, usually young males, taking the piss and refusing to even acknowledge what a woman is, never mind affording us any respect or privacy.

I also think the GRA needs to go, it has been reported that if someone claims they are the opposite sex then many work places, institutions etc, make their employees go along with the pretence and all that entails. They don’t have to be doing anything at all, just simply claim they are the opposite sex for that to begin. Moreover, they can obtain a GRC and still retain their genitals. Not to mention the fact that it is a complete nonsense that someone can change sex anyway. Some may think it is acceptable if the males have had full surgery, I think that would stop many of the more dangerous men, but since they don’t need to produce a GRC anyway it is surplus to requirements. The GRA therefore needs to go. Instead we as a society should be encouraging feminine men to accept themselves as feminine men and masculine women to accept themselves as masculine women. Not going along with the sexist idea that they are actually the opposite sex and having such a sexist and homophobic (since those that are likely to have surgery are more often lesbians and gays) statute written in law.

Yes I think there was a thread on Twitter earlier about a trainee woman being forced to share accommodation with a man who had decided he was now a woman. This is unacceptable and has to be stopped.

I'm no longer OK with seeing TW in changing rooms etc. I was before but all this debate has changed my opinion. I think there needs to be a 3rd space or they can change with others of their own sex.

I would complain if a TW was in my gym changing rooms and would leave until they had gone.

I AM male.. I cannot change that biological fact. But I’m not a man.

Do many trans people view themselves that way, do you know?

STOP USING OUR BATHROOMS AND CHANGING ROOMS IF YOU HAVE A PENIS!!! It's rude, disrespectful, and not ok. Please stop trampling over our (women's) boundaries and forcing your way into our spaces.

Another question for trans people - Why is there no campaign for trans changing rooms and toilets?

I really agree with the OP - that's why I don't subscribe to the line of thinking 'only the 'penis-free' can join women's spaces'. I believe SRS should be discouraged as well as other self-harming practices associated with dysphoria, so I take a hard line:

NO males calling themselves female. None. Never at any point.

Because no 'transition' is or can be meaningful- ever. It is living a lie, rejecting oneself. It is inauthentic.

However I would love to live in a world where rigid gender just crumbles. TBH in my 20s that's how it started to look - all gender-bending, creativity and fun - before the deranged ideology of 'trans' spoiled it all.

Self-acceptance, self-love and love and acceptance of others as they are too... That is progress.

“I think there needs to be a 3rd space or they can change with others of their own sex.”

I completely agree with you. I also think the reporting of correct stats, female sports, etc is important and if the GRA was repealed then that would be possible. At present it is not because someone who has a GRC will be included in those things. For example, a highly successful man who has had no surgery whatsoever, but has been ‘living as a woman for two years’ (which in reality could only consist of wearing skirts and make-up) could be included in the stats on female pay. Or a man who has lowered his natural hormone count by taking female hormones could complete in female sports. There are many other examples. This is why I think there are so many reasons why the GRA really has to go. Instead they should have their own stats, their own sports teams etc.

@daimbars

I’m getting messages every day from GC women in Brighton. I am pro-trans: trans people deserve to live as fully participants in society. However I am deeply concerned with the silencing if women’s voices and the way that children who don’t conform to gender are being pigeonholed and sent down treatment paths that may well be unnecessary in the longer term.

Brighton is also a very LGB friendly city but I find aspects of trans activism deeply homophobic.

@Mxyzptlk - I haven’t really ever broached the subject with that many of the friends I have who are also transwomen, I don’t have many friends that are trans. But I do know that a trans woman I am quite close friends with shares my opinion. Maybe not a mirror image.. but she has mentioned she knows she’s biologically male.

I would imagine most if not all of the ‘moderate’ (if such a thing were a think when comparing to TRAs) trans people would not deny their biological sex.

daimbars I'm agreeing with LaSqurrl and co-signing her very polite request that you please stop using lesbians as part of your argument. "Who on earth does it offend?"' Lesbians. LaSqurrl and I , for a start. So that's two of us, and already enough reason for you to stop it.

How you respond will be very telling. You could argue the point and insist on continuing, regardless of how we feel, or you could simply find another way to express yourself without needlessly offending people.

[Thank you, in advance, if you opt for the latter]

As a lesbian feminist , I have a few friends who are just now women or men , ,most wont even post on here

we accept them as being who they are , none would agree from what they have told me about these Activists

but me and my G/F avoid baby dykes with similar silly ideas in the Fox , our fav watering hole hence the handle

I'll just apologise now for being very wordy here.

"There's therefore no need for anyone to be 'critical' of another person's gender as it doesn't impact them in any way."

I am not critical of another person's gender. I am critical of the whole concept of gender. A "person's gender" is more accurately their gender presentation - choosing to adopt the stereotypical appearance of feminine or masculine. But gender itself is the idea that a female is feminine and must adhere to the current feminine stereotypes of their location (since those stereotypes vary over time and by location). Or that a male is masculine and ditto.

These stereotypes dictate not only external appearance but also internal behaviour and personality, e.g. a woman must be nurturing and submissive and a man must be emotionally undemonstrative and dominant. Which is all utter bollocks. None of us are those stereotypes. We may conform to parts of it, partly through personal inclination but also largely through grooming from day 1 by our society.

And since we conform to gender largely through this grooming/indoctrination, the idea that gender does not impact us in any way is nonsense. We are all hugely impacted by gender. It restricts what is considered acceptable behaviour for a woman (and for a man) and as such restricts our entire lives. And gender is a hierarchy, with women on the bottom.

It's easy to forget how new women's rights and freedoms are. My mother could be legally fired on getting married, and had to have her husband's permission to open a bank account or enter into a hire purchase agreement to buy furniture. And it's easy to forget, too, that some men frankly resent women having any autonomy, and see the current situation as an opportunity to destroy it all. They might make all the right sounds about being for trans rights, but it's just a convenient tool for them to work against women's rights. They don't give a stuff for trans rights or trans people. They're just human shields to hide behind.

So anytime someone pooh-poohs my silly little womanly fears, forgive me if I smell a rat. A feckin' big male rat.

“I think there needs to be a 3rd space or they can change with others of their own sex.”

This argument comes up again and again. The point I am making is most newly built places are gender neutral. Both swimming pools in Brighton & Hove have gender neutral changing rooms with lockable cubicles and I think a lot of cities are the same? This picture wasn't taken in Brighton - it's the Woburn Forest Center Parcs! If you look around you will see the third space you want is already here.

I genuinely don't understand that toilet sign, daimbars. Who are those three figures meant to represent?
A woman with baby, a man and a female child? Or what?

My mother could be legally fired on getting married

It wasn't just 'could be'. It was automatic dismissal on getting married, in many jobs.
When I was first working, my organisation's policy was a little better than that. It was automatic dismissal followed by immediate re-employment as a different person.

^^ For females only, of course.

A birth certificate is a social construct. You still don't seem able to comprehend the difference between biology and paperwork.

A problem most transactivists have.

Mxyzptl re the toilet image you would have to take that up with Center Parcs.

Erishkigal my DD's birth certificate is legal fiction. It lists both me and my wife, two women, as my daughter's parents. A biologically impossibility but I'm really glad this legal fiction exists and I would be upset if it was taken away.

To call a trans woman a man undermines the effort and struggle many trans women go through to gain some level of acceptance.

Can you see then how calling a trans woman a woman could suggest that females who do not conform to femininity are not women?

Using the word 'woman' does not work. A different word like 'femme' would be much more accurate and would include males and females who present in a feminine way.

Yes carry on battering that straw man Daim.

To call a trans woman a man undermines the effort and struggle many trans women go through to gain some level of acceptance.

This also suggests that woman is some sort of achievement, if someone behaves or undertakes some challenge well, they are rewarded and become a woman. When in reality it's just females aging.