Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

[Bloodmagic]

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

Okay Lang, I will stop using the @,

1. I don't want to go around in circles on this point.

1. I stand by my position. Parkrun is a fun run not a competitive event. One transwoman is not skewing anything. I also later on went on to say that if I was improving very quickly and started ranking in the top 25% of runners that I would look to mark myself as assisted somehow.

4.You and others have intentionally taken what was typed and cast it in to a specific light. The original post in question even specifically stated, in brackets that the analogy of meeting the other user was non confrontational. So I will not apologise for disingenuous misquoting.

1. I believe you to be an intelligent person. Many of your comments that I have read whilst reading through vast threads before commenting, I agree with at least aspects of, but again, you casting many that I say in to a specific light to paint me as the enemy is not my fault. I have tried repeatedly, both with yourself and other on these forums to find common ground. I am not your enemy, I do not see you as mine. I see you as someone whom has been pushed over the edge one too many times and wants drastic change. Or rather to stop a drastic change that would endanger people. I equally want change. But I do not want change that was pushed through by silencing people. I want to talk to woman. To ask questions, hear their responses to what I think and to through that learn more about this shitty situation that I switched myself off to and now want to catch up.

I have said time and time again that I am admittedly naive on a lot of topics. I have opinions like everyone, some have merit and some are stupid.

@Ireneony - Thank you, if I am honest, I think I have had it easy for the most part.

I absolutely agree that we need to stop telling children they can actually change their sex.

I also agree that GD is an illness. but unfortunately teaching transpeople to 'accept ourselves as we are not what we wished we were' isnt going to make it go away. I tried that approach for 27 years and I still decided to transition with hormones (and eventually surgery).

I also mirror your comment that I do not have all the answers.. But I want to talk. I want to talk a lot. There are not many of trans people compared to the general public, so I want my voice to be counted but it should not weigh more than yours or anyone's.

Yes I have said stupid things. I will say stupid things both on here and in real life but I am not obstinate, I am willing to learn other views and find the best way forward. For everyone. Unlike hard liners on both sides of the fence.

It is a regular occurrence on these boards that posters ask, "in what way are transwomen women?". If that isn't an appeal for evidence than I'm a dodo in a baseball cap.

In order to find evidence you have to know what you're looking for.

What I have learned so far is that a woman isn't an adult human female. Women are people who identify as women. They have a deep internal sense that they are women and this is what makes them women.

So a deep internal sense.

How does this express itself? Does it inform any changes in behaviour that distinguish us completely from men? Is it universal to all women? If so how come so many women don't recognise it as an attribute they have? Does it program all women to behave and think in the same way?

What I have learned so far is that a woman isn't an adult human female. Women are people who identify as women. They have a deep internal sense that they are women and this is what makes them women.

What it would be better to take away is that the word "woman" can mean different things in different contexts. Lots of words do, it's quite normal. We all seem to be able to hold that range of meanings in our minds and select the most appropriate one at any one time for most other words, so...

A woman is something in relation to the law. A woman is something in relation to biology. A woman is something in relation to culture and society. A woman is something in relation to her sense of self.

"What?", is the obvious question in response to all of those. In the law, I'm not so sure, but in relation to biology it is an expected set of chromosomes, reproductive apparatus and sexual maturity; in culture or society it obviously varies by location, but it typically encompasses how other interpret your social "role" and a good number of stereotypes in there; and in relation to the self, yes, it is to do with "identifying" oneself as one.

We're clever folk, we can hold all those concepts in our head at one time. We usually have a fair clue which one of those we're looking for in any given scenario, although granted, sometimes it's more complicated than that.

But "woman" does cease to have a biological meaning just because it has a social one which may not identify exactly the same individuals.

"Adult" has a meaning in law which doesn't encompass all of those who have achieved it's biological meaning - that of sexual maturity. Still a word. Still works just fine.

But "woman" doesn't cease to have a biological meaning just because it has a social one which may not identify exactly the same individuals.

Haha, typical fast-typing typo!

The children is the maddening part of all this.

No child should be able to make decisions which will permanently and irreconcilably change their bodies forever. We have the age of consent for a reason. They may be genuinely dysphoric but when I think to my own adolescence - I had lots of feelings thoughts and ideas about my identity, sexuality, who I was, that are all a natural part of learning about oneself and many of which I no longer identify with. I have done minor permanent things to myself which I regret. I worry about young people growing up in this age of 'changing sex' where the damage may not be minor.

NatLuc, are there any transwomen campaigns running for your own toilets/changing rooms/sports at all?

What it would be better to take away is that the word "woman" can mean different things in different contexts. Lots of words do, it's quite normal. We all seem to be able to hold that range of meanings in our minds and select the most appropriate one at any one time for most other words, so...

RatRolyPoly - This. Except many seem to denounce other contextual meanings.

Haha, typical fast-typing typo!

Freudian slip I'd say.

The legal protections women get as a biological class won't last if woman becomes a catch-all social category.

What it would be better to take away is that the word "woman" can mean different things in different contexts

I would expect the meaning of women would be female in the context of toilets, prison, hospital wards, sports teams.

I'm trying to think of examples when the meaning would be a more social one.

Except many seem to denounce other contextual meanings.

Right. You see no problem with this?

On another thread, a trans woman was talking about a trans friend who got beaten up. And that nobody 'saw' anything.

They said:
They won't, because although it happened in full view of lots of people, no-one saw anything! But she has fully recovered, apart from some broken teeth, thank you.
The perpetrators were a mixed group, and they weren't attacking a man they were attacking a 50-something post-op transwoman her "male" muscle mass and testosterone aggression are both long gone.

I responded:
If they were attacking a woman, it is no surprise that nobody saw anything and there will be no stats recoding crimes against trans people so it will all be lumped in with the other crimes against women. That's what is wanted isn't it? Or is it only ok [to take no action] when it is crimes against women?

We can't record crimes committed by trans people as crimes in the gender of choosing, whilst simultaneously recording crimes against trans people as against trans people. That is the problem with conflating the two groups - they are not the same and unless we accurately record it we can't report against it.

By going down the trans women are women route, you risk there never being reports of trans anything. Because it doesn't exist. See the dilemma?

Obviously the person I was speaking to here ignored the post and never responded. Which I expect you to as well. But the point is that it affects trans people and woman to keep conflating two separate definitions.

'Woman' doesn't mean lots of different things, whatever the context; it always means 'adult human female'.

Okaaay, so it's meaning is based on three qualifiers, one of which - "adult" - has demonstrably different meanings and yet the resulting word has only one meaning. Even though one of it's actual qualifiers has several.

That's simply not possible.

What it would be better to take away is that the word "woman" can mean different things in different contexts

No. That would not be "better to take away".

It would be a more accurate take-away ereshkigal, although it may not fit in with your intent.

The thing is daimbars, the whole world knows that you and your wife could never have biologically had a baby together. No one is forced to pretend this is physically possible. You don't have to give birth to be a parent.

The issue with the trans ideology is that we are told people can change sex. Which is as impossible as two women producing a baby.

Nails it. Brilliant post.

I don't accept that calling trans identified males women is in any way accurate. Nor do many other people. So there we go.

TERFragetteCity - Context is important.

In this instance you have mentioned, it is important to denote that this poor woman was a trans woman, because then it can be recorded as a crime potentially motivated by her trans status.

But in many different contexts it is not important to denote trans status.

Crime on the whole (including those committed by trans people) are a context in which it makes logical sense to differentiate. Because it helps make things better. It means we can, as a society gauge which groups of people are at risk of specific crimes. This benefits men, women and trans people equally.

Differentiating to control where I pee does not make sense.

Differentiating me from others when addressing a room full of women does not make sense. (as in 'Hello ladies, how are you all?')

Differentiating me when going to the doctors does make sense because I have specific and bespoke needs.

I think that there is a difference between conflation and simply using it to be inclusive in a given situation.

Nat, it seems that you want to differentiate when it's important to you, but not when it is important to women and girls.

Nat, it seems that you want to differentiate when it's important to you, but not when it is important to women and girls.

This is always the case. They won't help women and girls because access to our spaces, and organisations etc is a huge exercise in validation. They think women see them as women. What they won't see, is women have accepted them as a courtesy and can tell a TIM a mile off.

Okaaay, so it's meaning is based on three qualifiers, one of which - "adult" - has demonstrably different meanings and yet the resulting word has only one meaning. Even though one of it's actual qualifiers has several.

You only think the word adult has multiple meanings because you are erroneously conflating having reached sexual maturity with adulthood. Girls can start their periods at 12/13 years old, but their bodies are continuing to grow and develop for years afterwards. Girls who are pregnant at the age of 14 are at much higher risk of some kind of birth injury than 18 year old women,

What it would be better to take away is that the word "woman" can mean different things in different contexts. Woah! So, when am I, a woman, something other than and adult human female? When do I have my day off?

Lots of words do, it's quite normal. Yes, expect when the physical, or in this case physiological, 'thing' being names is immutable. Then a word has one meaning, cos, like "Science"

See you said earlier I was just not understanding... and I think you were right! I don't understand the tautology, the double think, the Emperors New Clothes of Transwoman = woman and gender = sex.

It's like the other lies... that I, as a GC woman, hate transwomen, don't think they should have any rights. I do,. They have every right to be a transwoman, to be wherever of the gender spectrum they feel most complete. I think that as a society it is an absolute shame that we have regressed so much since the 1980s, when men and women could present themselves any way they chose and there was a catch all term that didn't demean or traduce anyone... gender bender, which I had hoped would be the equivalent of gender fluid these days.

But no... apparently we have to give lie to the science to placate a psychological condition that is being touted as the next 'Big Thing' in progressive society. The cost of that unthinking acquiescence WILL be counted, and I suspect it will be painful for all. Makes me glad I am in my 50s and can ignore it all as 'something the kids do'

See!!! I now sound like my grandmother!

You only think the word adult has multiple meanings because you are erroneously conflating having reached sexual maturity with adulthood

I agree. Who would say that a sexual mature 14 year was an adult?

Who would say that a sexual mature 14 year was an adult?

A biologist?

Biologically, an adult is a human or other organism that has reached sexual maturity. In human context, the term adult additionally has meanings associated with social and legal concepts. ... The typical age of attaining adulthood is 18, although definition may vary by legal rights and country.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult

the term adult additionally has meanings associated with social and legal concepts