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Transphobia or truths?

(1000 Posts)
TwittleBee Fri 11-May-18 22:08:52

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

MeritBadge Fri 11-May-18 22:21:47

I think this thread is worth a look if you're pretty new.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3246322-A-Beginners-Guide-to-the-Transgender-Debate-A-Signpost-to-Useful-Mumsnet-Threads

(Might not come out clicky)

ErrolTheDragon Fri 11-May-18 22:27:43

* How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?*

The short answer is 'misogyny'.

Rule 3?
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/6kkeni/thee_rulesoff_misogyny/

thebewilderness Fri 11-May-18 22:50:02

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Ruse 3 is in effect but also remember the 8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

ToeToToe Fri 11-May-18 23:06:36

It's not transphobia.

Trans activists want to call it transphobia to get us all shut down - because the more people talk about this - the more people realise how shockingly flimsy the gender ideology is. It is based on belief not evidenced based science and fact.

It's akin to blasphemy laws - we're the non-believers, the infidel. We must be burned as witches.

crispbuttyfan Fri 11-May-18 23:12:44

www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/mumsnet-transphobia-online/

This is a good overview..

ToeToToe Fri 11-May-18 23:24:14

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/if-mumsnet-can-stand-up-for-free-speech-why-cant-mps/

But this is better.

LikeAZombie Fri 11-May-18 23:35:38

Funny that the last post on the linked reddit post is a classic example of rule number 5. 5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

This doesn't account for those of us that identity as other kim. Please acknowledge.

TwittleBee Sat 12-May-18 05:35:02

MeritBadge , crispbuttyfan and ToeToToe thank you I'll take a look at those links.

ErrolTheDragon and thebewilderness how comes other feminists or people in general do not recognise that?

ToeToToe many appear to claim there is scientific evidence in psychological journals that supports their gender ideology...? I've yet to find anyone link to it yet though? Is this because it doesn't exist or doesn't add up?
Basically do they honestly believe there is such thing as a girls brain and a boy brain rather than anyone can have any personality?

TwittleBee Sat 12-May-18 05:36:23

LikeAZombie if women and feminists must be useful to men, does that mean trans'women' are wanting to use women for their own gains?

thebewilderness Sat 12-May-18 05:43:13

TwittleBee

Those are some of the rules that misogynists operate by that have been observed and collected by Feminists.

thebewilderness Sat 12-May-18 05:44:01

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.
10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.
11th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.
12th rule of misogyny: Women's ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.
13th rule of misogyny: Women are not oppressed! Rape and catcalling and objectification are all compliments, not oppression.

TwittleBee Sat 12-May-18 07:11:46

thebewilderness I just do not understand how other people don't have an issue with these rules though. How can, what feels like the majority, just roll over and let this all happen

Opheliah Sat 12-May-18 07:31:38

Gaslighting works.

If you hear "that's transphobic" about something enough times you just believe it. Most people naturally want to be people pleasing, and trans ideology takes advantage of that, particularly around forcing different counter-intuitive pronouns and silencing people by saying everything's transphobic.

The way trans ideology has tacked itself onto gay rights (lgbt) and appropriated all the language used by opressed groups, MPs and people with influence genuinely believe it's a progression of gay rights without thinking it through properly, in how it's completely different and undermines women's rights. Gay rights were helped by feminists. This movement is completely different.

Extreme trans ideologists do genuinely believe there's no such thing as sex, that gender "your innate sense of self" is all there is to go on. This is in conflict with ppl who are same-sex attracted, who get gaslighted into believing their feelings are wrong.

FlippinFumin Sat 12-May-18 07:48:47

I have read about the cotton ceiling, it horrified me, but these all seem to be male to female identified people. Are there any recorded examples of female to male identified people wanting gay men to accept them as male even though they don't have a penis? Or, do they, probably rightly, think gay men would laugh in their faces and tell them where to go.
Are there plans to take gay men to court for transphobia crimes, should the GRA be amended, for not choosing to have sex with trans men with vaginas?
I apologise in advance if I have not used the correct terminology, and I have not meant to offend anyone if I have used any incorrect terminology.

thebewilderness Sat 12-May-18 07:59:22

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Opheliah Sat 12-May-18 08:05:32

I think some TIFs do go on Grindr and gay hook up sites for men, but they generally don't get very far. They are no where near as entitled and insistent as the "TW are lesbians" brigade. And it's absolutely not as prolific.

FlippinFumin Sat 12-May-18 08:14:57

Thank you for your replies, I had suspected as much.
I think the anorexia analogy is good, I suffered terribly with body issues when I was younger. At one point I weighed less than 6 stone, but every time I looked in the mirror all I could see was a great big fat bottom. I was clearly deluded, but it seemed so real to me.
Looking back that was such a dangerous time for me but luckily I had a great family and friends, and common sense prevailed. I am now almost 60 with a great big fat bottom, funny how things turn out blush

LaSqrrl Sat 12-May-18 08:28:41

The way trans ideology has tacked itself onto gay rights (lgbt) and appropriated all the language used by opressed groups, MPs and people with influence genuinely believe it's a progression of gay rights without thinking it through properly, in how it's completely different and undermines women's rights.

I agree with this (the coat-tails business). Although, I am maybe on the fence as to whether the wilful blindness of MPs was deliberate or accidental. I suspect the former really.

LaSqrrl Sat 12-May-18 08:34:03

Are there any recorded examples of female to male identified people wanting gay men to accept them as male even though they don't have a penis?

Yes, but because they are female, and gay men have more standing in this world than women, the gay men more or less laugh them off. Basically nipped it in the bud. Gay men, for the most part, have been of little help with the Cotton Ceiling.

Are there plans to take gay men to court for transphobia crimes, should the GRA be amended, for not choosing to have sex with trans men with vaginas?

Nobody, either way, regardless of orientation etc, can force someone else to be intimate with them (comes under sexual harassment/assault or rape). Nothing to do with the GRA really, which is more focused on (a rough summary) 'recognition of being trans and the steps required to have that recognition'.

FlippinFumin Sat 12-May-18 08:46:10

Thank you LaSqrrl

LangCleg Sat 12-May-18 08:48:59

I agree the current working definition of transphobia is pro-woman. So y'know. Why I should I care? I am pro-woman.

RatRolyPoly Sat 12-May-18 08:56:28

I think the anorexia analogy is good

The anorexia analogy is not "good", it's deeply offensive and a complete false analogy I'm afraid.

You may have felt you were suffering a delusion surrounding your body, but the thing that pathologised that delusion was that the actions you will likely have been drawn to take (excessive exercise, reduced calorie intake, purging etc.) were killing you.

So even if you think trans people are delusional over their bodies (which quite demonstrably they're NOT, because the ones you're referring to, the ones with dysphoria, they see quite clearly what their body is and it distresses them!); so even if you still think that's "delusion", the action they're typically drawn to take (hormones, living as the opposite sex, surgery) tends to EASE their discomfort.

In fact far from killing them, acting on their feeling rather cures them instead.

I hope now you can see that annorexia thing is a crock of shite.

FlippinFumin Sat 12-May-18 09:09:01

because the ones you're referring to, the ones with dysphoria, they see quite clearly what their body is and it distresses them!); so even if you still think that's "delusion", the action they're typically drawn to take (hormones, living as the opposite sex, surgery) tends to EASE their discomfort

Many apologies for any offence, that was not the intention. My delusion was the way I saw my body, I expected others to see it as the same, for example doctors and family. I expected them to see me as fat too.
I have no problem with anyone living the way they want to live, my problem is with them then trying to make others see them the way they see themselves, it may work sometimes, but you cannot force someone to see you the way you see yourself. And you cannnot expect others to change their preferences just because you say you are really what their preference is, when you don't look like their preference. I hope that clears up what I was asking about, the cotton ceiling, not trans people in general.

Opheliah Sat 12-May-18 09:54:21

The anorexia comparison is very good.

All types of body dysphoria also include elements of social contagion. No one chooses to take steroids to become Mr muscle without influences from society.

Models in the fashion industry were ana encouraging when it was trendy now they're trans encouraging because that's trendy.

Doping on testosterone is known to cause cancer and a whole host of life limiting health problems in TIFs. Causing sterilisation is tremendously life limiting especially when years later there is huge regret. So to say following the path of medical transition saves lives isn't actually true, it harms healthy bodies.

The cause of death amoungst anorexics is suicide, a much higher cause than the starvation itself so the treatment needs to address the depression as well as the manifestation of this in anorexia.

All body dysphorics suffer from self hatred and self harm. There is a huge parallel there.
No one addresses the depression in trans people only the manifestation of it in body dysphoria by changing the body, and that could be why studies have shown there is no change in suicidal tendencies in trans people after medical transition.
They are not being "cured" of any underlying MH problems by transitioning. Far from it.

Accepting people as they are and changing society's expectations of individuals based on their bodies, challenging syereotypes, not judging bodies so harshly or people's choice to dress how they want or express themselves how they want, this is where all the problems are found. Not in people's perfectly healthy normal bodies.

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