Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

White privilege does not mean that while people are all objectively privileged. It means that white people are more privileged than black people in the same context. So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man.

Lol... yeah.... ‘white privilege’ does not mean ‘every single white person is privileged

Well read the bbc link fms posted. This is what happens when nuance is not applied.

If you think that you don’t understand what class analysis IS; about the dynamics of power, NOT about people

I haven’t talked about individuals just working class white people. They have very little power. I’m just arguing for more nuance in class analysis - If I’m not understanding class analysis please explain where I’m going wrong.

" So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man."

Oh dear :(

What a joke of a post

Also re ‘poor’ and ‘white’ you are aware that those are two different classes

Yes but as I said pages ago, surely people can and do belong to more than one class.

"Lol... yeah.... ‘white privilege’ does not mean ‘every single white person is privileged’...

"So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man."

Bit of a disconnect here.

Back to the original post

Class analysis..... Why do people find it so difficult

Possibly because it can lead to statements like

So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man

Class analysis is really useful but nuance is needed.

"" So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man."

Oh dear sad

hmm hmm

What a joke of a post"

It's fine to disagree and explain why. Not fine to just be gratuitously rude.

Is the problem we're having here the word "privilege"? Does it have too many overtones of silver spoons and stately piles?

it's really mild compared to some of the ad hominems I receive, the pile ons and the constant questioning of my sex

"it's really mild compared to some of the ad hominems I receive, the pile ons and the constant questioning of my sex"
Possibly not.But a) I haven't been involved in any of those things and b) it doesn't actually add anything to what is an interesting discussion.

So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man.

I do think it's worth pointing out that some "privilege" is worth more than other "privilege". So here, for example, by the time you are rough sleeping, it's neither here nor there if the Bullingdon boy shouts the N word or the P word while he's burning a tenner in front of you.

Another example: someone like Chiwetel Ejiofor (Dulwich Prep, Dulwich College, LAMDA) is more privileged than the vast majority of men in the UK. But, being black, he might have a slight disadvantage against Benedict Cumberwhatsit and Tom Hiddlewhatsit.

Same goes for someone like Shon Faye, whose current feminine presentation is far outweighed by the mountain of privilege enjoyed by dint of being born male and white, and getting an elite private school to Oxbridge education.

I do think it's worth pointing out that some "privilege" is worth more than other "privilege

As I said, nuance

And a homeless man has more privilege than a homeless woman. Tht does not mean that homeless men are in a fantastic position-just better than a woman in the same situation.

But men as a class are definitely more violent than women as a class.

Just putting this in again as it refers back to the original question.

Class analysis..... Why do people find it so difficult

Possibly because it can lead to statements like

So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man

Class analysis is really useful but nuance is needed.

Constantly- what's wrong with that statement?

"And a homeless man has more privilege than a homeless woman."

Oh dear again. It really doesn't help your argument to keep focusing on the privilege levels of people literally on one of the lowest, if not lowest rungs of society.

This really shouldn't need explaining

"Same goes for someone like Shon Faye, whose current feminine presentation is far outweighed by the mountain of privilege enjoyed by dint of being born male and white, and getting an elite private school to Oxbridge education."

Except under your intersectional model of class privilege he can claim oppression points for being trans.

“And a homeless man has more privilege than a homeless woman."

Oh dear again. It really doesn't help your argument to keep focusing on the privilege levels of people literally on one of the lowest, if not lowest rungs of society.

This really shouldn't need explaining”

One of the most common objection to class analysis is to point out that members of the privileged class can be disadvantaged compared to some members of the “non privileged class”. A prerevious poster mentioned a very disadvantaged, predominantly white area. I was trying to explain that privilege still exists, even within disadvantaged groups. So a homeless man is in a “better” position than a homeless woman- even though they are both in a crap situation.

Except under your intersectional model of class privilege he can claim oppression points for being trans.

I don't have an intersectional model in the third wave, pomo sense. What makes you think I have? Why do you describe it as my model? What did you think I meant by despite current feminine presentation? Can you read?

Intersectionality is a term coined by legal scholar Kimberle Crenshaw to refer to societal power structures as wielded by legislation and institutions. I subscribe to that, original, model, not the identifarian one. It has a class analysis and and an examination of power relations. Therefore relevant to this thread.

Vis a vis homelessness, intersectionality as a class analysis would focus on who has become or is more likely to become homeless and why, and what institutional structures and legislative blindspots affect this.

Vis a vis homelessness, intersectionality in its corrupted pomo sense would focus on the "lived experience" of homelessness and assign various subjective oppression points.

Two very different things.

and the constant questioning of my sex

Yes the irony in arguing that the trans agenda is the erasure and shutting up of women yet doing this seems to escape some posters. You can"t be a woman because you don't have opinions they approve of as sufficiently womanlike. It is not a tactic Bertrand uses.

what's wrong with that statement

I’m assuming you mean the So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man statement.

Honestly it’s like looking at two starving people, one black one white. The black person has nine grains of rice and the white person has ten. You then tell the white person that this means they are a bit more privileged than the black person.

To make matters worse people who generally do class analysis are educated and privileged. So you are telling the white person they are privileged compared to the black person whilst tucking into a roast dinner with all the trimmings.

Class analysis is really useful but in this particular situation it’s unhelpful at best.

" I was trying to explain that privilege still exists, even within disadvantaged groups. So a homeless man is in a “better” position than a homeless woman- even though they are both in a crap situation."

I know what you were trying to do, doubling down on the homeless example isn't going to convince me lol

"To make matters worse people who generally do class analysis are educated and privileged."

Yeah, something about kids at Ivy League/Oxbridge claiming they're oppressed definitely does not add up.

What is JP says about people born in the west already being in the top 1% globally, and kids at elite schools being in the upper echelons of that top 1%

"Yeah, something about kids at Ivy League/Oxbridge claiming they're oppressed definitely does not add up."

Where did this come from? And please stop with the "lols"