Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

I was once told by two white intersectional feminists that I was "white passing" and therefore had "white privilege" (I'm mixed race). They based this on my facebook profile picture where I'm wearing sunglasses and had a comedy hat on, thus obscuring most of my identifying features.

When I pointed out to them that they were stepping "out of their lanes", "denying my lived experience" and needed to "check their privileges as white women who have never had their ethnicity/identity called into question" then they got mad and blocked me.

Funny that

it is easy to imagine an alternate universe where it is white people who are much more likely to be violent, and black people who are nervous/frightened of them.

This already exists. Black people in the US and in particular, black men, are well aware that police - as a class - pose a greater threat to them - as a class - than they do to white people - as a class. Teenage black boys are generally given a talk by their parents that white boys don't get - along the lines of how to avoid confrontation with the police, what to do if stopped etc.

beckaellen
There are two recent cases in the media of sexually motivated murders of women where the watching of violent porn was cited as influential in the case

We didn’t discuss violent porn. I actually think violent porn is a different matter from violent TV, gaming and films. There really isn’t evidence that those increase violence.

I’m pretty sure violent porn is very damaging (and I’m a liberal feminist - or as you would call me not a proper feminist).

"The nice middle class man who hit my daughter only lost a few friends over the incident............

So they did inflict the only social reprisal they are permitted. What would you have preferred? You've ruled out violence. Do you think violent people respond to a stern talking telling off?"

You misunderstand me. He only lost a few friends. It made no difference at all to the majority of them. He should have lost all of them.

""Well a lot of men aren’t really in a position to decrease other men’s violence"

And she responded

Really? I can think of several things straight away"
I then went on to list several things that I think all men could start doing now - whether they are violent men or not- which would make society better. You left that. It out!

Such a shame that a very ibteresting tgread has been so derailed by posters flexing their intellectual muscles very badly
I dont know why women can't talk about mechanisms enabling identification of patterns

midgebabe I have been enjoying your posts

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying men as a class are more violent than women as a class... Statistically it's true. But you can't say men as a class are violent otherwise you would also have to say women as a class are also violent.

You could also say that men as a class are more likely to experience violence - which is also true.

My teen son is white and more likely to be stabbed on the street than my teen daughter.
He is also more likely to commit suicide.

I suppose this information helps when formulating social/health policy. It’s helpful when describing large populations

On page 8 we see that the thread has been taken over by those who neither know nor care what class analysis is.
So it's not as much a matter of can't but won't because individuals would much prefer the post modern approach of playing oppression olympics, the game of logical fallacy, anecdotes, and whataboutism.

Our ancestors built societies on 'might makes right' and most, possibly all, continue to glorify violence to this day while we split hairs over which is justified and which is not.

"You could also say that men as a class are more likely to experience violence - which is also true."
Not sure that is strictly true-if you factor in "behind closed doors" violence. And anyway, it's at the hands almost exclusively of other men, so I'm not sure whether the "men as a class are more likely to be victims of violence" is a very helpful caregory

Well it is if you are looking at the impact of violence on men as a class - perpetrators and victims. You could categorise further and then address that through policy approach.

I think men are more likely to be Ictinus of violent crime, women are more likely to be victims of violent sexual crime.

How does acknowledging that the only people men kill more often than women and children are other men advance the class analysis?
I guess it depends on how you define violence.

Basically anything to take the focus off the fundamental point that men
as a class are more violent than women as a class.

Well if you want to reduce male violence then surely you need to understand more about it?

What sort of things do we need to understand it?

You use an evidence base to address violence through intervention programmes from parenting, schools to intervention when people are in hospital. This happens already in scotland.

You need to understand - if a boy sees dad taking a knife with him on a night out what does that say to the boy about being a man in this world? And how does that affect our community?

If men are the main perpetrators of violence surely it makes sense to analyse it and to plan interventions?

“If men are the main perpetrators of violence surely it makes sense to analyse it and to plan interventions?”

Yes of course. What is the importance of identifying men as the main victims as well as the main perpetrators?

Well why not?

It’s information which helps inform intervention- such as looking at the dynamics of gang culture.

Are you suggesting that instead of doing a class analysis we ought to be doing a cultural analysis?
If so, you could certainly start a thread on that subject.

On page 8 we see that the thread has been taken over by those who neither know nor care what class analysis is.
So it's not as much a matter of can't but won't because individuals would much prefer the post modern approach of playing oppression olympics, the game of logical fallacy, anecdotes, and whataboutism

Well said - a great topic has been relentlessly trolled and undermined with whataboutmenz - yes men are the problem - male violence - that some want to obfuscate by undermining the definition of women and destroying them and their spaces is testament to the importance of the subject. Men are subjected to violence as well but that's not what this thread is about - go start another one

Well done OP for a great topic -it's so on the money that others are waging war against it - must mean you're onto something!

I am sorry I haven't rtft but I am a big fan of class analysis.

IMO people get hung up on the idea of 'privilege' eg- "I don't have white privilege, my parents were poor and the Pakistani kid from the cornershop is at Cambridge" and I think it is more persuasive to look at it the other way around - eg - 'white' people 'as a class' do not face the barriers of racism that are experience by 'black' people as a class, ie - it is a privilege to not have additional barriers.

But privilege is blind, no one realises they have it unless they really stop to think about the negative things they have the privilege of not experiencing (ie a vanishingly small percentage of the populace).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44196645

"White privilege"

Great link fms I come from one of those deprived North west towns. It’s mostly white but has some the worst outcomes in the country.

• poor educational outcomes
• early mortality
• high levels of substance abuse
• high teenage pregnancy

White privilege definitely exists (I benefit from it). But the people in my home town really can’t be described as privileged.

I think that’s my issue with class analysis when you are looking at a huge % of the population. Of course class analysis needs to happen but a little more nuance is needed sometimes.

Lol... yeah.... ‘white privilege’ does not mean ‘every single white person is privileged’...

If you think that you don’t understand what class analysis IS; about the dynamics of power, NOT about people.

Also re ‘poor’ and ‘white’ you are aware that those are two different classes?