Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

Some key quotes from this article: www.the-american-interest.com/2018/05/24/atonement-as-activism/

"Today’s consciousness-raising on race is less about helping black people than it is about white people seeking grace."

"This brand of self-flagellation has become the new form of enlightenment on race issues. It qualifies as a kind of worship; the parallels with Christianity are almost uncannily rich. White privilege is the secular white person’s Original Sin"

I touched upon the above elsewhere in this thread when someone claimed that enlightenment ideals like truth, reason and logic were just ways for the Patriarchy to enforce its control.

The enlightenment and the birth of liberalism were meant to liberate us from ideas like original sin, but its increasingly taken up by the Regressive Left of today, just rebranded for the "woke" generation

I think you might be conflating two different things.

Anyway.

Back to the original post you asked

Class analysis..... Why do people find it so difficult

I’m thinking it’s probably a mix of things. Sometimes it’s not nuanced enough. Sweeping statements about people’s privilege, when in actual fact they have very little privilegegeta people’s backs up.

Also this class analysis comes from an educated privilege group. And it’s pretty jarring to be told you enjoy privilege from someone vastly more privileged than you.

So to move away from privilege, which appears to be a loaded word with it's association with silver spoons and stately piles.

Back to statements like "men as a class are more violent than women as a class"....

Or "White people as a class have more power than black people as a class"

Britain is 87% white. Mass immigration to the UK only started after WW2.

There is nothing controversial or systemically racist about a historically white and majority white Country having more white people in positions of power or authority than other ethnicities.

In an equal multicultural society then we should strive for equality of opportunity, but this isn't going to happen overnight or even for several generations

Back to statements like "men as a class are more violent than women as a class"

Well we’ve already talked about this. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that statement on its own it’s very much true. I’ve been lazy and copied and pasted a previous post.

You said
I also find the fact that many men won't accept that "as a class men are more violent than women as a class" (AACMAMVTWAAC) Incredibly frustrating because it means they can wash their hands and carry on, rather than doing what they can to change it. Men have the power to make society so much better yet they (as a class) choose not to

Well you are talking about an individuals take on your class analysis (which isn’t about individuals). So you can see why the class analysis gets misinterpreted at the individual level.

It sounds like you are asking them to take responsibility for and prevent acts of violence they have nothing to do with.

Like some people blaming the Muslim faith for a terror attack. Why didn’t Muslims do more to stop extremism etc. Well most of the 2 million Muslims in this country don’t know anyone linked with extremism.
You can’t ask people to stop violent acts that they have nothing to do with.

You can’t ask people to stop violent acts that they have nothing to do with.

No, but you can ask that they support sensible social policy that joins up safeguarding frameworks, legal protections, a criminal justice system, education system and cultural understanding that has the aim of minimising such violent acts.

"There is nothing controversial or systemically racist about a historically white and majority white Country having more white people in positions of power or authority than other ethnicities."

But that is not what your "White people as a class....." statement says.

"But that is not what your "White people as a class....." statement says."

It's not my statement, it's yours. You are the person that started this topic are you not?

"White people as a class have more power than black people as a class"

It's exactly what it says

"It sounds like you are asking them to take responsibility for and prevent acts of violence they have nothing to do with"

That wasn't my intention. What I intended to say tht if men (as a class) accepted the analysis, it would be reasonable to expect them to do whatever they could in their own lives to change stuff that wi make things better for everyone. As individuals they will be able to do less or more-but as a class there is lots they could do.

No, but you can ask that they support sensible social policy that joins up safeguarding frameworks, legal protections, a criminal justice system, education system and cultural understanding that has the aim of minimising such violent acts

Absolutely you can ask people to do this. But the argument

“you are a man and as such a member of the class that causes the most violence. Therefore you should support these policies”

Doesn’t seem to be resonating. The arguement.

“Some (a lot of) men commit appalling acts of violence and we believe this policies will reduce this violent culture. Please support us”

Might win more support.

Class analysis is useful but I don’t think it’s winning any hearts and minds.

What I intended to say tht if men (as a class) accepted the analysis

Why do you care so much that men accept the analysis? I’m assuming your goal is to reduce and eventually stop male violence, an excellent aim.

It very much sounds like class analysis simply isn’t resonating as a method for convincing men of the importance of reducing violence (I think that this is kind of the reason you started this thread).

When something isn’t working maybe the best thing is to try something different.

We're not in "if only you asked nicely" territory, are we?

And it's not as if I'm suggesting men should do anything more than live civilised, empathetic, aware, decent lives.......

Constantlycold - what do you actually think that article is telling you?

‘White’ and ‘poor’ are classes... unfortunately in this article they are using ‘white’ in place of ‘English as a first language’ but meh...

Class analysis has given them language to describe the conditions of the people at this intersection.

Without understanding that there are classes would you even be able to see this intersection?

It doesn’t offer any information about why this is so...

It is highly likely that this is attributable to economic class being more important than racial class/nationality in Britain because being poor is treated as a moral defect here.

You keep talking about nuance but nuance is entirely irrelevant because it’s a class analysis. It’s not ‘those working class kids better shut up because at least they are white’...

We're not in "if only you asked nicely" territory, are we

No we are in you are using the wrong tool territory.

Like you are doing some diy. You need to saw some wood in half. Your favourite tool is a hammer so you start bashing the wood. When it doesn’t work you question why the wood isn’t in two bits yet.

The hammer is a good tool it’s just not useful when it comes to sawing wood.

I think it’s you that is identifying everything as a nail TBH...

What you are essentially saying is class analysis shouldn’t be used for purposes that are not analysis of class....

Well... it’s you that has been doing that every time you have said things like ‘but these white people who have other class disadvantages have crappy outcomes’....

And people are like ‘well... yeah, what is your actual point?’

OK-I confess myself utterly baffled.

Can you explain to me why men (as a class) won't want to do things which only they can do that will make society better for everyone? Which, for the avoidance of doubt, includes men.

The power dynamics of class are totally utterly different to an individual’s experience because a person never belongs to just one class do they.

I’m a white British woman who had a middle class but abusive childhood, I have a disability, I am a carer for my disabled child and am poor. All the intersections of these various things is quite important for me as an individual but it would be utterly ridiculous for me to start saying ‘class analysis doesn’t capture nuance, my life isn’t a privileged one so white privilege doesnt exist’

It is class analysis not oppression olympics. It does mean I can begin to understand myself in relation to others though.

You've created the confusion yourself Bertrand

Men 'as a group' are more violent than women 'as a group'.

But no 'individual' man can take responsibility for the group as a collective. Therefore if they already do the things you want them to do, then what do you suggest?

If you are looking to class analysis to give you, as an individual, a box to fit in then you are quite frankly totally misunderstanding it.

What it does give you is an understanding that there are other people who you may have common cause with or that there are other people with different class based issues that you need to be mindful of.

“But no 'individual' man can take responsibility for the group as a collective. Therefore if they already do the things you want them to do, then what do you suggest?”

I”m sure that many individuals do. If they do, and are happy that they can do no more then they don’t have to do anything. You’re confusing “class” and “individual” again.

"Can you explain to me why men (as a class) won't want to do things which only they can do that will make society better for everyone?"

"I also find the fact that many men won't accept that "as a class men are more violent than women as a class" (AACMAMVTWAAC) Incredibly frustrating because it means they can wash their hands and carry on, rather than doing what they can to change it. Men have the power to make society so much better yet they (as a class) choose not to"

This is starting to sound a lot like the Munroe Bergdorf style "white fragility" nonsense - the idea that if you're not actively trying to dismantle the structures of racism then you're not helping and therefore guilty of racism