Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

[Offred]

Caveat; IMO it’s very hard for any woman to leave.

However, I do think there is a difference in these patterns depending on economic status. Wealthier women are more likely to leave an unsatisfactory man. Poor women are more likely to be left. Poor women are aware that being a poor single mother means you are universally hated and despised.

[NotDavidTennant]

"Only way to do that is for women to change the way they act. Don't have relationships with these people, don't have kids with these people. If they change in to one of these people, leave them."

flowersonthepiano said what I was going to say on this.

Since the divorce laws become liberalised and social expectations about long term cohabitation have changed many women have been voting with their feet by leaving men who pull this kind of thing. The problem is that a lot of these men don't see that they are doing anything wrong, so they don't change they just become angry and resentful towards women. Hence the rise of women raising children alone, the rise of angry groups of men like "incels", etc.

[Offred]

I actually think that it is not just a problem with cultural sexism within heterosexual relationships TBH.

It is also a problem with structural sexism within the economy.

It is really hard for a man to step into sharing ‘women’s work’ because a. It is culturally ‘emasculating’ (due to women’s low status) b. Socialisation around masculinity and the shock of a child can mean many men anxiously cling harder to the idea they ‘must provide’ and c. Structurally and socially the economy massively discincentivises and often actively punishes men who try to prioritise care work. It punishes women too but then you are left with both parents being financially punished.

[Offred]

When ‘lots of individuals take actions’ and it produces the effect of an inequality because the inequality privileges/disadvantages people along class lines (e.g. lots of individual men are not sharing the burden of childcare/housework, lots of individual women are in the position of having to gain the permission of men in order to make choices about their lives), that is when it becomes a ‘class issue’. That’s how class analysis works.

The reason it is needed is so we can take action to remove the disadvantage/privilege dynamic.

[flowersonthepiano]

"Only way to do that is for women to change the way they act. Don't have relationships with these people, don't have kids with these people. If they change in to one of these people, leave them."

I think this may be starting to happen in more egalitarian countries. Then you end up with the likes of incels who blame women for not tolerating them, rather than examining their own tolerability.

[ConstantlyCold]

That's what I mean by disingenuous ignorance. It's been explained several times

No you described lots of individuals taking actions.

[Offred]

www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2016/556933/IPOL_STU(2016)556933_EN.pdf

[DancelikeEmmaGoldman]

On the housework front - this is an Australian example sourced from the most recent census.

www.google.com.au/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/census-2016-women-are-still-disadvantaged-by-the-amount-of-unpaid-housework-they-do-76008

[BertrandRussell]

"Still not sure what acting as a class means, sounds like individuals acting to me)"

That's what I mean by disingenuous ignorance. It's been explained several times.

[Lichtie]

Really? I'm genuinely surprised... Told you I may be blinkered.

Do you have a link to these stats? Would be interested to read them.

[Offred]

If it were a minority you would expect that to be reflected in the stats. The reason Bertrand has said ‘as a class’ is because the stats consistently demonstrate women doing twice as much.

[Lichtie]

"Oh, I don't know. How about maybe men as a class stepping up and taking responsibility for the way they behave in relationships"

Only way to do that is for women to change the way they act. Don't have relationships with these people, don't have kids with these people. If they change in to one of these people, leave them. I don't think its fair to say men as a class behave this way, in my experience it would be a minority... But I accept I may be blinkered.

[ConstantlyCold]

Oh, I don't know. How about maybe men as a class stepping up and taking responsibility for the way they behave in relationships

That would be fabulous. How do we (society, so that’s all of us) put the wheels in motion to achieve this? (Still not sure what acting as a class means, sounds like individuals acting to me).

[BertrandRussell]

"I was asking how we can change the culture so that more men pull their finger out at home and more women expect for from the men in their lives."

Oh, I don't know. How about maybe men as a class stepping up and taking responsibility for the way they behave in relationships? Because that way society will be better for everyone?

[Offred]

It is interesting though that despite claiming SAHM is not really lower status and actually in some ways privileged you go on to make a point which acknowledges; ‘women need permission from men’

That’s obviously not the only thing restricting choice for women, earning capacity, childcare provision (this is rarely an issue for men is it?) and economic status etc etc

But if you think a big issue is that women are not ‘insisting’ men share and that that is a problem, then I’m interested really in why you don’t see that as an actual indication of a power differential as old as time; ‘man as head of the household’

[ConstantlyCold]

Just checking. You weren’t one of the people going on about how patronizing it was that class analysis was being discussed by middle class academics, were you

Yes I was. But just to clarify I’m not now saying women in shit relationships should just act like my mates. If only life were that simple. Of course they have completely difference life experiences.

I was asking how we can change the culture so that more men pull their finger out at home and more women expect for from the men in their lives.

[BertrandRussell]

“BUT we are mostly middle class professionals and are more than capable of sticking up for our selves. ”

Just checking. You weren’t one of the people going on about how patronizing it was that class analysis was being discussed by middle class academics, were you?

[BertrandRussell]

“Actually amongst my group of friends we just let them fuck up and they deal with the consequences themselves.”

Do you? Even if it means that a child loses out?

[Offred]

How do we empower more women to insist their partners man up and share the childcare / housework? I’m hoping the culture is slowly changing with more men seeing childcare as acceptable.

This is the age old question. A couple of things; I have so many stories of broken agreements, this is common place. Insisting is not enough when women have no actual power to enforce agreements. I guess it follows that women therefore need higher status and more value placed on the ‘shitwork’ so that they don’t end up being ‘default’ shitworker performer when men make agreements then just decide not to follow through.

[ConstantlyCold]

Yes, you do. And who picks up the slack

Actually amongst my group of friends we just let them fuck up and they deal with the consequences themselves.

BUT we are mostly middle class professionals and are more than capable of sticking up for our selves.

How do we empower more women to insist their partners man up and share the childcare / housework? I’m hoping the culture is slowly changing with more men seeing childcare as acceptable.

[Offred]

But that there is a balance. If you are a SAHP you gain extra time with your kids and you don’t have to work. But you lose out financially.
There are benefits to being a SAHP. Like I said if I could I would be a SAHM - but we need the money.

Obviously there are a lot of women who don’t really choose to SAH. It’s not worth their while to go to work when you consider the cost of childcare. I would hope that working tax credits help to pay for childcare and allow people to work if they want to but I’m no expert.

I think you live in a bubble TBH.

[BertrandRussell]

"You are right men definitely aren’t held to as high a standard. But yes I hear about numpty dads fucking up all the time."
Yes, you do. And who picks up the slack?

[ConstantlyCold]

has anyone ever heard a man being judged about the way his children or his female partner is turned out

You are right men definitely aren’t held to as high a standard. But yes I hear about numpty dads fucking up all the time.

My dh gets judged (in a very lighthearted way) by my friends for constantly being barely on time for drop off at school.

[ConstantlyCold]

I wonder if the people taking the "SAHM have it good" line

Not a “they have it good” or it’s “easy”

But that there is a balance. If you are a SAHP you gain extra time with your kids and you don’t have to work. But you lose out financially.
There are benefits to being a SAHP. Like I said if I could I would be a SAHM - but we need the money.

Obviously there are a lot of women who don’t really choose to SAH. It’s not worth their while to go to work when you consider the cost of childcare. I would hope that working tax credits help to pay for childcare and allow people to work if they want to but I’m no expert.

[BertrandRussell]

I don't want to get drawn into this-because I think there is some disingenuous ignorance going on, but out of interest, has anyone ever heard a man being judged about the way his children or his female partner is turned out? Or about the state of the house? Has anyone ever said "What was her dad thinking about?" in the discussion of a coke and chocolate packed lunch?